MF 40 Industrial - Brake Master Cylinder

Old_Man · Jul 2, 2020

Hi

My MF40 has a Brake Master Cylinder attached on the RHS just in front of the Forward/Reverse pedal.

I have looked everywhere & can find nothing in any manual which indicates that this model even came with one. Which leads to think it was installed by some farm engineer.

Any help would be appreciated, as I keep losing fluid, so a diagram of how it works would be great.

Many Thanks

Jim.ME · Jul 2, 2020

Pushing a pedal should cause the master cylinder to send fluid to a cylinder, of some type, to actuate a function. This should work the same as an auto/truck brake system or an auto/truck hydraulic clutch system.

To me it looks like you have a mystery to solve. Unless someone has seen one set up this way, more info will be needed to help you. Can you make a diagram of it showing all the lines and where they connect/go? The master cylinder looks like an automotive one for a dual/split brake system, not what I would expect to see there. If it is brakes I would expect to see one for each side, unless the ability to brake the wheels individually was removed by this set up. Does yours have wet brakes or drum brakes? Do you see any slave cylinders at the brake levers? If drum brakes, could someone have installed an auto backing plate and used a wheel cylinder to actuate the brake shoes? More pictures of what you find might help.

ptfarmer · Jul 2, 2020

That's someone's "home grown" deal there.

Old_Man · Jul 3, 2020

(quoted from post at 21:35:44 07/02/20)
Pushing a pedal should cause the master cylinder to send fluid to a cylinder, of some type, to actuate a function. This should work the same as an auto/truck brake system or an auto/truck hydraulic clutch system.

To me it looks like you have a mystery to solve. Unless someone has seen one set up this way, more info will be needed to help you. Can you make a diagram of it showing all the lines and where they connect/go? The master cylinder looks like an automotive one for a dual/split brake system, not what I would expect to see there. If it is brakes I would expect to see one for each side, unless the ability to brake the wheels individually was removed by this set up. Does yours have wet brakes or drum brakes? Do you see any slave cylinders at the brake levers? If drum brakes, could someone have installed an auto backing plate and used a wheel cylinder to actuate the brake shoes? More pictures of what you find might help.

Thanks Jim.ME

I will draw up a diagram over the next few days, also so that I know what goes where. When I fill it with fluid & obviously pump like mad to start with, it will brake pretty well.

My Tractor only has a single brake pedal as is, so from what I can tell both wheels brake at the same time. Having a quick look it appears there are brake cylinders on the wheel.

Now that I have fixed my Power Steering issue I will move onto the brakes so will take some photos as well. Looking at the brake cylinder it looks similar to a Ford Falcon one that I had in my car, but seeing that not all MF40's are the same, maybe they put them in Australian models. My money is some farm "engineer" did a fix in their shed.

Many Thanks

Old_Man · Jul 3, 2020

(quoted from post at 14:47:19 07/03/20) That's someone's "home grown" deal there.

Hi ptfarmer

I think you might be right, the Master Cylinder looks similar to one that I had in my Ford Falcon Car, so more than likely some farm "engineer" modified the brakes.

Many Thanks

Old_Man · Jul 4, 2020

(quoted from post at 21:35:44 07/02/20)
Pushing a pedal should cause the master cylinder to send fluid to a cylinder, of some type, to actuate a function. This should work the same as an auto/truck brake system or an auto/truck hydraulic clutch system.

To me it looks like you have a mystery to solve. Unless someone has seen one set up this way, more info will be needed to help you. Can you make a diagram of it showing all the lines and where they connect/go? The master cylinder looks like an automotive one for a dual/split brake system, not what I would expect to see there. If it is brakes I would expect to see one for each side, unless the ability to brake the wheels individually was removed by this set up. Does yours have wet brakes or drum brakes? Do you see any slave cylinders at the brake levers? If drum brakes, could someone have installed an auto backing plate and used a wheel cylinder to actuate the brake shoes? More pictures of what you find might help.

Hi Jim.ME

Took some photos of the brakes today.

Two brake lines go from the Master cylinder to the back of the tractor axle, they are then split and they then go to each wheel.

Each line then goes to a brake on each wheel, what is interesting each wheel actually has 3 brake cylinders, but only 2 are connected with the brake lines.

From the photos you will see that the brake cylinders appear to be connected to a huge disc brake, in the second last photo it looks as if there has been a leak in the lines so hopefully wont be a hard fix.

This seems to be a very elaborate system & would find it strange that someone just knocked this up in their back yard.

Jim.ME · Jul 4, 2020

I don't know, it doesn't look like anything I have found in a parts book yet. The parts book for a 40 shows disc brakes but they are mechanically operated. Maybe something different was used in Australia. It looks home engineered to me with the extra lines pinched off at the caliper, like used parts from a car or truck. The left and right brakes can not be actuated separately, as set up can they?

MF#1 · Jul 4, 2020

PBR brakes has a US contact: pbrbrakesusa.com and at the bottom of their home page is this header:
"Australian Engineered for Maximum Braking Power". I would think that you could find their Australia website and contact them directly. They may know if there was ever a time when their brakes were used on Massey's or if this was as mentioned a "farmered" or "engineered" setup. Never seen that on a Massey over here before.
Maybe when you fix the leak it may solve your issue. Good Luck!

Old_Man · Jul 5, 2020

(quoted from post at 08:08:03 07/05/20)
I don't know, it doesn't look like anything I have found in a parts book yet. The parts book for a 40 shows disc brakes but they are mechanically operated. Maybe something different was used in Australia. It looks home engineered to me with the extra lines pinched off at the caliper, like used parts from a car or truck. The left and right brakes can not be actuated separately, as set up can they?

Hi Jim.ME

I have had a look in my Workshop Manual & I have found nothing about disc brakes at all. The only braking in my books is the similar system I have in my JD 2010, with the ball bearings that expand the brakes.

As you say could be a different system used in Australia. In your manuals does it show that the their are disc brakes on the hubs as per my pictures?

I agree the brake lines look back yard, but I put that down to the possibility that someone replaced the original lines due to them being faulty.

The brake lines that are pinched off, I assume were originally going to the third caliper. Each wheel actually has 3 calipers, with only 2 being connected.

You are correct the brakes cant be operated separately.

Many Thanks Mate

Old_Man · Jul 5, 2020

(quoted from post at 14:01:33 07/05/20) PBR brakes has a US contact: pbrbrakesusa.com and at the bottom of their home page is this header:
"Australian Engineered for Maximum Braking Power". I would think that you could find their Australia website and contact them directly. They may know if there was ever a time when their brakes were used on Massey's or if this was as mentioned a "farmered" or "engineered" setup. Never seen that on a Massey over here before.
Maybe when you fix the leak it may solve your issue. Good Luck!

Thanks MF#1 I had a quick Google, nothing on PBR & Massey Ferguson & more than likely done as backyard repair. I think once I fix the leak the brakes should work, when I filled with fluid they would work until I lost fluid.

Again Many Thanks

Jim.ME · Jul 5, 2020

The disc brakes in the parts catalog I am looking at are the expanding type, as you described seeing in your books, not axle housing mounted calipers working on a rotor that you have.

Old_Man · Jul 5, 2020

(quoted from post at 21:38:41 07/05/20) The disc brakes in the parts catalog I am looking at are the expanding type, as you described seeing in your books, not axle housing mounted calipers working on a rotor that you have.

Thanks Jim.ME

So have you seen the Brake Disc/Rotor on a MF before, such as I have on mine?

Because it would seem strange for some one to go to all that work if the disc wasn't already on the axle. I could see someone replacing the calipers, but to manufacture everything for the disc/rotor would seem excessive.

You would think it would just be easier to fix the original brakes, I fixed mine on my JD 2010D fairly easy.

Thanks

Jim.ME · Jul 5, 2020

Have seen anything like that. I think most people would want to keep individual wheel brakes.

ptfarmer · Jul 7, 2020

That's the first tractor I've ever seen with disk brakes like that. Someone obviously didn't feel like fixing the inboard disk brakes!

My Ford 4500 TLB with the axle housing removed, had to replace the axle seals, but figured I'd give the in board brakes a look while I had it apart.

Old_Man · Jul 7, 2020

(quoted from post at 16:05:16 07/07/20) That's the first tractor I've ever seen with disk brakes like that. Someone obviously didn't feel like fixing the inboard disk brakes!

My Ford 4500 TLB with the axle housing removed, had to replace the axle seals, but figured I'd give the in board brakes a look while I had it apart.

Thanks ptfarmer

That looks like a lot of fun you went through LOL Hope that I never have to do something like that.

I am trying to get log on details for the Australian Agco site to see if the disc brakes was an Australian thing. Even the single brake pedal looks original & at the moment I am leaning towards that the lines may have been repaired but there was a similar system in place originally.

I played with it today, was able to crack open the crimped over lines at the end of the caliper, got fluid to pump out. But the brake pedal still goes mushy & light, with lots of gurgling from the Master cylinder, what was bizarre I had like a vapor/smoke drift out of the master cylinder when I pumped, have never seen anything like that.

As the Master cylinder is below the calipers I am thinking the fluid is running back into the Master & might be a reason to why the pedal keeps going mushy, could also be the master cylinder is stuffed as well.

I was thinking of replacing the one I have in my Ford Falcon, which I recently replaced & seeing if the problem is fixed.

ptfarmer · Jul 7, 2020

I would be really surprised if it is original (but very doubtful about it). The US MF40 industrial that had in board disk brakes would look something like this (my Ford 4500 is simular to this).

Old_Man · Jul 11, 2020

Hi ptfarmer

Thats similar to one I fixed on my JD2010D.

I'm lost, I am trying to get onto the Australian Agco site to see if the models were different in Australia.

I played around with the brakes they definitely work, but it seems that the fluid keeps running back to the master cylinder, I dont know if that is the way it is supposed to be, as the master cylinder is below the level of the brakes.

So I will keep playing around & see what happens.

Many Thanks

ptfarmer · Jul 13, 2020

When the master cylinder is mounted below the brake calipers you need a residual pressure valve in the brake line between the master cylinder, and brakes. Wilwood part number 260-13783 is a 2psi residual valve the keeps a little pressure in the line to prevent the brake fluid from going going back into the master cylinder.

Old_Man · Jul 14, 2020

Thanks ptfarmer I reckon that will solve the problem, many thanks.

MF 40 Industrial - Brake Master Cylinder

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