4239D /4239T differences, Injector Pumps - new cage timi

Just bought a '76 450C with a wrecked 4219T motor (rod thru block) and a spare 4239D to replace it.
Appears a turbo has been added to the 4239D. The injector pump is a DB2-4451 of which research reveals is from a 410 tractor. (probably where the 4239D came from!?). The injectors are matched for a 4239D (22203).

Running on the test stand was a tad rough and revs at high idle hunted, so I bought 4239T injectors (22265) for it and it now runs very cleanly on the test stand with no smoke (no load tho).

I just read however that the 4239D block (or the balance shafts) do not have the drillings for piston oil cooling and I may have problems with overheat under heavy load with the turbo.
Can anyone weigh-in on the ins and outs of the D and T variants and whether what I've got is a 'go'?
also ....
I'm not sure whether fuel delivery is sufficient with the DB2-4451? (or if the Transfer Pump pressure can be set a tad higher to increase fuel?) OR does that only affect timing advance etc.
I also have the old pump off the damaged 4219T (JDB2802 - a 'Rebuild' unit by Deere) but the weight cage has been changed (maybe in subsequent rebuild?) for the newer EID type and I'm not sure the timing mark has been scribed in the correct position!
I know a rough guide to the position can be determined by looking down the #1 injector output hole (with the banjo and line removed) to see the pressure port hole when it appears with rotation, but the side plate states the original cage marks were 'Timed End Inj'. and that little hole is visible for quite some crankshaft degrees. Is 'End Inj' when the hole 'sunsets' (disappears)?
Finally,
I've worked on a Case 188D and recall timing it to 8 BTDC by setting the Flywheel to 8 degrees and lining up the marks on the injector pump. (the pump timing marks are the actual injection rotational position)
But on the Deere, the procedure is to lock the flywheel with the timing cover bolt pin at TDC (?) then the pump adjusted to align the timing marks. I therefore presume the pump for the Deere has timing marks which when aligned are not the actual injection point but actual injection occurs maybe 8(ish) degrees before these marks in actual operation???
Anyone confirm this please?

I read a new weight cage comes with no timing marks and must be added by the re-builder. So, a new owner of the pump has to rely that the timing mark was scribed in the correct position.
But if the rebuild was a DIY job, and the DIY re-builder somehow just noted the pump position upon removal then fitted in same noted position after re-build, then how the heck does a new owner of the pump find out where 'Times End Inj' point is ???
At least with the DB pumps the injection port timing can be viewed down the banjo bolt hole but on the DB2 pumps, the banjo holes are out the back so the internal rotor holes cannot be seen!

Most Roosa/Stanadyne pumps are timed for END of injection, CLOSE to TDC. The weight cage mark is checked on the timing tool board for the correct degree shown on that
particular pump specs/parts list during assembly. DO NOT use port alignment for timing, it's NOT accurate enough, and can't be seen on late DB/DM pumps anyway.
Also, DO NOT attempt to raise the pump transfer pressure on engine, that should only be done on the test bench. You will risk a hydraulic head seizure/drive shaft break
when tampered with on engine.

(quoted from post at 05:54:44 12/07/21) Most Roosa/Stanadyne pumps are timed for END9 of injection, CLOSE to TDC. The weight cage mark is checked on the timing tool board for the correct degree shown on that
particular pump specs/parts list during assembly. DO NOT use port alignment for timing, it's NOT accurate enough, and can't be seen on late DB/DM pumps anyway.
Also, DO NOT attempt to raise the pump transfer pressure on engine, that should only be done on the test bench. You will risk a hydraulic head seizure/drive shaft break
when tampered with on engine.

Click to expand...

Thnx for the warnings.
Last night (late) i came across a Stanadyne Service Bulletin (177.pdf?)
Which mentions 'air timing' for DB and DM pumps to find where to mark the Cage.
Are you familliar with this?
What i can't quite get my head around is when determining the EndOfInjection from the StartOfInjection, the precise measurement between Rollers has to be determined (measured) first. This distance then determines the additional rotation required (by lookup table) to establish EndOfInjection. I guess this is all about precise mechanical geometry of the Cam Ring. I'l try a comparison using this method to compare the cage mark.
On the subject of Transfer Pump pressure, does anyone know the Stanadyne Specification for the DBGFCC-431-43AJ? (Case 188D)
I found the spec for a .......... 431-46AJ. (69~70psi). Is the 'tail end' difference in the model numbers significant (43AJ / 46AJ)?
I got the pump in pieces, so have to assemble and start from scratch)
Thnx

Roosa/Stanadyne use air timing only on beginning of injection pumps, it's no use on end of injection pumps. Air is used as air can slowly get past the rotor delivery
valve, and still bring out the plungers so the rollers can contact the cam ring at beginning of injection. CAV/Lucas/Delphi pumps use test oil to do the same thing, but
they don't have a rotor delivery valve to get in the way. FORGET trying to find end of injection with air, you won't be accurate. The degree board tool is the only way to
get the mark correct from the spec sheet. The SUFFIX info is very important for both parts list and pump setting specs. The only way to correctly set the transfer
pressure is with the pump at full load on the test bench, same applies to the speed or light load advance if used.
Am I familiar with air timing? Yup, been repairing/testing pumps over forty five years and still counting..

(quoted from post at 10:40:47 12/07/21) Roosa/Stanadyne use air timing only on beginning of injection pumps, it's no use on end of injection pumps. Air is used as air can slowly get past the rotor delivery
valve, and still bring out the plungers so the rollers can contact the cam ring at beginning of injection. CAV/Lucas/Delphi pumps use test oil to do the same thing, but
they don't have a rotor delivery valve to get in the way. FORGET trying to find end of injection with air, you won't be accurate. The degree board tool is the only way to
get the mark correct from the spec sheet. The SUFFIX info is very important for both parts list and pump setting specs. The only way to correctly set the transfer
pressure is with the pump at full load on the test bench, same applies to the speed or light load advance if used.
Am I familiar with air timing? Yup, been repairing/testing pumps over forty five years and still counting..

Click to expand...

Sounds like we're probably a similar age ..... how are your aches and pains?
I assume you have a business servicing pumps and I thank you for your comments, your final comment however reminds me of the story "You don't know Jack Schitt"
(amazingly, moderator will not allow link !)

I'm definitely at that "a little perceived knowledge is very dangerous" stage, but ........
If you're willing to share?
Q. Where/how is/are individual specifications available so re-builders can set the pumps up to precise spec? Would I assume correctly Stanadyne has a subscription service for this? or can an individual specific one be purchased?
My situation here .......
I've just recently got involved with several buddies (ailing) equipment. Several years ago, my buddy's 580CK IP stopped pumping one day so it was sent away to a rebuilding shop, coincidentally in your home state. The 'Flex Ring' had done it's magic trick. He said it took ages to get the thing back as they were "having problems with the advance". Finally getting it back after 6-8 weeks, it was installed but the tractor never ran properly despite categorically making sure the static timing was correct. During this saga, a fair amount of ether was used and it was believed that this tired old 188D had been 'finished off' as a result. Subsequently, it has sat there 4 years since.

Recently, I was asked to look at the machine. Checked the timing setup ... (correct) then found no fuel flowing out from the main body back to the tank. Some fuel was present at the injectors however. The machine would start (reluctantly) get hot quite quickly, then slowly die.
(No blockages in the top fitting either.)
Upon strip down, it transpired the 'wire vent' from the transfer pump to the main housing interior was completely blocked. The wire dowels took some time to get out and cleaned up.
Maybe this was something to do with the problems the re-builders had with it!? I get the feeling that they didn't do a thorough job? so it was still all about the pump. Maybe, the old CK could run again as-is for a little longer with the pump sorted out. My buddy does not like the idea of shelling out another $500 or so currently, so, I'm attempting to help out.
I do not want to mention the re-build shop here.
This concludes my 'War and Peace' story

(quoted from post at 23:13:55 12/06/21) Just bought a '76 450C with a wrecked 4219T motor (rod thru block) and a spare 4239D to replace it.
Appears a turbo has been added to the 4239D. The injector pump is a DB2-4451 of which research reveals is from a 410 tractor. (probably where the 4239D came from!?). The injectors are matched for a 4239D (22203).

Running on the test stand was a tad rough and revs at high idle hunted, so I bought 4239T injectors (22265) for it and it now runs very cleanly on the test stand with no smoke (no load tho).

I just read however that the 4239D block (or the balance shafts) do not have the drillings for piston oil cooling and I may have problems with overheat under heavy load with the turbo.
Can anyone weigh-in on the ins and outs of the D and T variants and whether what I've got is a 'go'?
also ....
I'm not sure whether fuel delivery is sufficient with the DB2-4451? (or if the Transfer Pump pressure can be set a tad higher to increase fuel?) OR does that only affect timing advance etc.
I also have the old pump off the damaged 4219T (JDB2802 - a 'Rebuild' unit by Deere) but the weight cage has been changed (maybe in subsequent rebuild?) for the newer EID type and I'm not sure the timing mark has been scribed in the correct position!
I know a rough guide to the position can be determined by looking down the #1 injector output hole (with the banjo and line removed) to see the pressure port hole when it appears with rotation, but the side plate states the original cage marks were 'Timed End Inj'. and that little hole is visible for quite some crankshaft degrees. Is 'End Inj' when the hole 'sunsets' (disappears)?
Finally,
I've worked on a Case 188D and recall timing it to 8 BTDC by setting the Flywheel to 8 degrees and lining up the marks on the injector pump. (the pump timing marks are the actual injection rotational position)
But on the Deere, the procedure is to lock the flywheel with the timing cover bolt pin at TDC (?) then the pump adjusted to align the timing marks. I therefore presume the pump for the Deere has timing marks which when aligned are not the actual injection point but actual injection occurs maybe 8(ish) degrees before these marks in actual operation???
Anyone confirm this please?

I read a new weight cage comes with no timing marks and must be added by the re-builder. So, a new owner of the pump has to rely that the timing mark was scribed in the correct position.
But if the rebuild was a DIY job, and the DIY re-builder somehow just noted the pump position upon removal then fitted in same noted position after re-build, then how the heck does a new owner of the pump find out where 'Times End Inj' point is ???
At least with the DB pumps the injection port timing can be viewed down the banjo bolt hole but on the DB2 pumps, the banjo holes are out the back so the internal rotor holes cannot be seen!

Click to expand...

I'm curious how this ever turned out. I have a similar situation. The 4219T in my 410B has a bad block (low liner) and I'm building a 4239T. It started out as a 4239D, but I got the rods and pistons with the bigger wrist pin that thr turbo 4239T uses.

I'm still researching if I can use the injection pump and Injectors from my 4219T on the 4239T I'm building. That would make life way simpler for me. The pump number on my 4219T is JDB-3955 and AR96356 says W/EID. Any help is appreciated.

This post was edited by BottleHauler on 01/21/2022 at 06:20 pm.

Hello Senor 'Bottle' this Friday
I didn't ever get definitive details for my questions.
I've not yet installed the motor into the crawler and checked it out 'doing work' but it runs nicely on the test stand.
Here's what I believe to be the basic 'nitty gritty'......
Diesel engines are pretty forgiving on what the fuel delivery they receive. What I mean there is ........ unlike a gas engine, their power and revs are entirely derived from how much fuel is injected and nothing to do with the 'air throttle' opening!. They have no flow control on input air, just respond to how much diesel is injected.
So, if the injection system is lacking, you won't get a lot of revs/power ...... period.
The Stanadyne pumps have a whole load of different part numbers/derivative suffix numbers but essentially are a version supplied to a specific manufacturer to (as I believe) have a 'hold' on that particular version.
......Back to what I mentioned earlier .... the motor has a direct response to how much diesel is injected. No diesel, no revs/power.
Now the 239D motor I have with a turbo added ...... it was rough at a 'high idle' (top revs!) it had injectors marked for a 'D' 239 so after putting in 'T' 239 injectors, it was smooth at high idle. Injectors have an adjustment screw on their top so I believe they are adjusted a 'tad' for different opening pressures. I think the turbo stuffing air in was a major factor to this 'roughness'.
Back to your motor ...... the 239 is 5 cu in more per cylinder than the 219 .... so bigger capacity. Therefore must require more fuel for peak power. If you have correct injectors marked for that cu/in/capacity/turbo, then i'd assume if peak revs are not attained, then fuel starvation is the culprit - pump supply?. In that case, I'd try increase the 'Transfer Pump Pressure' to gain fuel flow. This as an adjustment in the back of the pump which can be read with a pressure gauge (when running) attached to a port plug also in the back of the pump. My experience reveals A simple air pressure gauge will work to see pressure but the pressure gauge MUST BE 'throttled' (VERY restrictive hole) to stop wild needle movements and get an 'average' pressure measurement when 'running'.
Note: A Stanadyne bulletin I saw says that this pressure should NEVER exceed 135 psi, so be warned. I believe this can result in pump seizure and the the input shaft from the motor could shear off! Really not good at all!
Currently, I have no idea if the injection timing between the 'D' and 'T' variants should be different but my lifetime engineering experience would lead me to believe a different timing ought to be necessary. What that would be is ???
Hope this might be of use to you and please let me know if you know anything about the 'T' version extra oil 'squirty holes' which are supposed to cool the underside pistons - allegedly from the the counterbalance shafts.
Whew ..... I'm oft to watch the 'box' now and chill.
Best of luck

(quoted from post a
t 19:18:26 01/21/22)

(quoted from post at 23:13:55 12/06/21) Just bought a '76 450C with a wrecked 4219T motor (rod thru block) and a spare 4239D to replace it.
Appears a turbo has been added to the 4239D. The injector pump is a DB2-4451 of which research reveals is from a 410 tractor. (probably where the 4239D came from!?). The injectors are matched for a 4239D (22203).

Running on the test stand was a tad rough and revs at high idle hunted, so I bought 4239T injectors (22265) for it and it now runs very cleanly on the test stand with no smoke (no load tho).

I just read however that the 4239D block (or the balance shafts) do not have the drillings for piston oil cooling and I may have problems with overheat under heavy load with the turbo.
Can anyone weigh-in on the ins and outs of the D and T variants and whether what I've got is a 'go'?
also ....
I'm not sure whether fuel delivery is sufficient with the DB2-4451? (or if the Transfer Pump pressure can be set a tad higher to increase fuel?) OR does that only affect timing advance etc.
I also have the old pump off the damaged 4219T (JDB2802 - a 'Rebuild' unit by Deere) but the weight cage has been changed (maybe in subsequent rebuild?) for the newer EID type and I'm not sure the timing mark has been scribed in the correct position!
I know a rough guide to the position can be determined by looking down the #1 injector output hole (with the banjo and line removed) to see the pressure port hole when it appears with rotation, but the side plate states the original cage marks were 'Timed End Inj'. and that little hole is visible for quite some crankshaft degrees. Is 'End Inj' when the hole 'sunsets' (disappears)?
Finally,
I've worked on a Case 188D and recall timing it to 8 BTDC by setting the Flywheel to 8 degrees and lining up the marks on the injector pump. (the pump timing marks are the actual injection rotational position)
But on the Deere, the procedure is to lock the flywheel with the timing cover bolt pin at TDC (?) then the pump adjusted to align the timing marks. I therefore presume the pump for the Deere has timing marks which when aligned are not the actual injection point but actual injection occurs maybe 8(ish) degrees before these marks in actual operation???
Anyone confirm this please?

I read a new weight cage comes with no timing marks and must be added by the re-builder. So, a new owner of the pump has to rely that the timing mark was scribed in the correct position.
But if the rebuild was a DIY job, and the DIY re-builder somehow just noted the pump position upon removal then fitted in same noted position after re-build, then how the heck does a new owner of the pump find out where 'Times End Inj' point is ???
At least with the DB pumps the injection port timing can be viewed down the banjo bolt hole but on the DB2 pumps, the banjo holes are out the back so the internal rotor holes cannot be seen!

Click to expand...

I'm curious how this ever turned out. I have a similar situation. The 4219T in my 410B has a bad block (low liner) and I'm building a 4239T. It started out as a 4239D, but I got the rods and pistons with the bigger wrist pin that thr turbo 4239T uses.

I'm still researching if I can use the injection pump and Injectors from my 4219T on the 4239T I'm building. That would make life way simpler for me. The pump number on my 4219T is JDB-3955 and AR96356 says W/EID. Any help is appreciated.

This post was edited by BottleHauler on 01/21/2022 at 06:20 pm.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Missesess.

Here's what I've gathered so far on difference of injectors between a 4239D and a 4239T....the pop pressure of a 4239T is higher (around 3800 psi) and the pop pressure on a 4239D (around 3300 psi) and they also have different 4 hole spray orifice sizes. 4239T is 0.29mm and 4239D is 0.27mm....I don't how much difference in fuel delivery it really makes, but my assumption is the slightly bigger spray orifice along with the higher nozzle pop pressure allows better atomization for the increased fuel delivery for the turbo, building more power.

The real question I have, is the Standadyne JDB-3955 pump on my 4219T, I'm wondering if that will handle the higher pop off pressure of the AR90024 (27336) nozzles that are in the 4239T? The AR89564 (22202) nozzle used in a 4219 has a bit less pop pressure of around 3200 psi, although the spray orifice is pretty close in size to the 4239T.

Missesess, to answer your question on the oil spray jets, I believe the older blocks we not drilled, but the later blocks (I'll look at serial number breaks to see when) were drilled. The piston oil jet doesn't use the balance shafts to spray oil, however the are just little orifices sticking out of the block just below a main crankshaft journal. I will get some pictures for you. Also, even the 4239D (later models) had the piston oil spray jets even though they weren't turbo charged. My 4329D block casting is R80726, non turbo and it has the R80034 non turbo rods but it does have the piston oil jets. So it kinda depends on what serial number your block is and how old it is. I hope that helps.

This post was edited by BottleHauler on 01/21/2022 at 09:34 pm.

Thank you for that comprehensiveinfo on the injectors.
I'd wondered why there were so many different numbered injectors and was curious if there really was a difference between them. Your info info informs that there is!
I guess there really is 'Science' in this!
There are many selling aftermarket injectors with claims for many applications which i now presume cannot be correct, although will work sort of, ok. ( hence my earler post of 'loosey goosey engine diesel requirement)
Where were you able to get that concise info of the injectors?
With regard to info on your particular pump, have you contacted Stanadyne and asked directly where that info may be available? I would imagine that this info must be 'out there' for Rebuilders to reference! ( unless this industry falls into the 'shade tree mechanic' category)
Final note on getting that info ....
I was able to find on the net some actual Stanadyne spec sheets for a couple of DB pumps, with advance, flow and primary pressure settings. So i guess they're 'out there' someplace.
Lastly, i've now got my fingers crossed to whether my tuboed 239D will last without the correct pistons etc.
Rime will tell i guess.
Ramble mode = off

(quoted from post at 22:22:18 01/21/22) Thanks for the info Missesess.

Here's what I've gathered so far on difference of injectors between a 4239D and a 4239T....the pop pressure of a 4239T is higher (around 3800 psi) and the pop pressure on a 4239D (around 3300 psi) and they also have different 4 hole spray orifice sizes. 4239T is 0.29mm and 4239D is 0.27mm....I don't how much difference in fuel delivery it really makes, but my assumption is the slightly bigger spray orifice along with the higher nozzle pop pressure allows better atomization for the increased fuel delivery for the turbo, building more power.

The real question I have, is the Standadyne JDB-3955 pump on my 4219T, I'm wondering if that will handle the higher pop off pressure of the AR90024 (27336) nozzles that are in the 4239T? The AR89564 (22202) nozzle used in a 4219 has a bit less pop pressure of around 3200 psi, although the spray orifice is pretty close in size to the 4239T.

Missesess, to answer your question on the oil spray jets, I believe the older blocks we not drilled, but the later blocks (I'll look at serial number breaks to see when) were drilled. The piston oil jet doesn't use the balance shafts to spray oil, however the are just little orifices sticking out of the block just below a main crankshaft journal. I will get some pictures for you. Also, even the 4239D (later models) had the piston oil spray jets even though they weren't turbo charged. My 4329D block casting is R80726, non turbo and it has the R80034 non turbo rods but it does have the piston oil jets. So it kinda depends on what serial number your block is and how old it is. I hope that helps.

This post was edited by BottleHauler on 01/21/2022 at 09:34 pm.

Click to expand...