Need 4020 history lesson

jerseysierra · Jul 12, 2019

I thought all 4020's had DB Roosa pumps but recently I saw one with a "CB" pump. I didn't even know there was such a thing. Was that an early or late production part or was it something they used as an option? Is it something to avoid? Just curious and working on my educamation. And before someone tries to be funny, yes I know only diesels had them.

NY 986 · Jul 12, 2019

Let's see how good my memory is. CB's are the short pump that was used on the 1969 and 1970 model year 4020's. Apparently, production by Roosa-Master was
insufficient for the DB pumps so this is what Deere and R-M came up with. I've heard a fair amount of complaints about the CB pump but will readily admit I never owned or
ran a CB equipped 4020. I've heard of plenty of swap outs of CB pumps for DB's and most likely in a pinch somebody has done the reverse of that.

jerseysierra · Jul 12, 2019

Thanks for the info! Sounds reasonable. Surprisingly little info available on them on the 'net.

Mike M · Jul 12, 2019

From what I know they were on some of the later 4020 and on some of the utility tractors like a 400TLB.
Parts were basically obsolete for them many years ago. JD offered and may still offer a changeover kit with new pump and lines.
The few I know of with CB pumps have been trouble free and work fine. A very simple pump that is not plagued with issues the DB ones have with the flex rings.
I am really surprised with all the high dollars late 4020's can bring and people wanting 100% correct that no one has been reproducing the CB pumps. If they are I have not seen or heard of them.

Bob Bancroft · Jul 12, 2019

I've seen a few, but only ever had my hands on one once. They're so tiny I wonder how they even work!

Customer brought in their 4020 to have that little pump checked out because they had changed fuel filter and their problem didn't go away. I took it off and took it to the local diesel shop. Came back nothing wrong! I put it back on, and changed fuel filter myself, and guess what- it ran fine, had power!

tomstractorsandtoys · Jul 12, 2019

There are also no serial number breaks that determine which pump. It seems that the factory just used whatever pumps they were shipped in the order they opened the boxes. In being around the small pumps here are a few of my observations, first they tend to have a little blue or white smoke, they often start harder than the bigger pumps and they do put out more hp that the bigger ones. The little ones can be found on 2020,2510,2520,3020,4020,4000's and most 4520 had them as well. Tom

cornerpost · Jul 12, 2019

As others said CB pump doe not idle as
crisp as DB. Diesel shop in Red Oak Iowa
still worked on in 2009 or 2010. Swapped
pumps out with my original 9500 hour pump.

JDEM · Jul 12, 2019

A friend of mine still has the 4020 he bought new in 1969 in Oneonta, NY. It has the original CBC pump on it and has never been off. Only
repair ever done to it was I had to take out the throttle pinion gear out and flip it upside down to get more life out it. Parts were
discontinued for the CDC and CBC pumps 30 years ago. Many outlasted the DBG and JDB pumps. They were very common on the "yellow 4020" model
600s. Less common on the green 4020s. I still have a round plastic timing window in my toolbox for adjusting the timing advance on them.
Not something that gets used much anymore.

4520BW · Jul 13, 2019

I believe the hole in the block is different so the pumps will not interchange. I made several adaptors for 4520s to put the big pump on.

D- · Jul 13, 2019

Deere went to that pump with introduction of '69 models.
Not just 4020 but all US made tractors. They were supposed
to maintenance free but were a disaster, though several posts
on here seem to have had good luck. I think price was the real
reason for using them to start with.
'70 was the last year for them. Deere offered a kit to replace
them with the other style. It included the pump, lines, linkage,
and bracket to clamp it to the different version block.
We replaced a few that didn't make it out of warranty.
Later when I had my own shop I ended up with three 4020s with those
pumps. I obtained different pumps and lines from 7700 combines to
replace them. I ended up selling all three little pumps to customers
whose went bad. I have a pile of them under a bench. Many are parts
donors.
There were no parts available for a long time but I think some are
now.

JDEM · Jul 13, 2019

We have many problems with the CDC pumps. When the CBC came out, we had few problems other then some governor updates in the early ones. Many of the later CBCs greatly outlasted any of the DBG or JDB pumps since there was no plastic/pellathane weight retainer to break. Only slight weak point was the rack and pinion throttle gears. Those were pretty easy to change though and often a worn pinion gear could just be flipped upside down and be used again. Ten minute repair.

I was told by Stanadyne reps that the CBC was discontinued due to its design limits and lack of expandability for use on bigger engines. Not for any sort of high failure rate. Who knows? We kept buckets of old CDC and CBC parts and old pumps around for years. Used many to patch up problem pumps.

tomstractorsandtoys · Jul 14, 2019

Your 69 year is not correct as I have seen both 2020 and 2510 tractors with the little pumps. Only ever seen a hand full but there were some out there. Tom

D- · Jul 14, 2019

'69 - '70 Waterloo tractors were the only years for little pumps.
If you saw a 2510 with one it had been replaced. All 2510 were
shut off with throttle. 2520 were electric shutoff. Electric shutoff
was introduced in '69.
Yes 1020 - 2020 had them but not the early ones. They were also shut
off with the throttle. 1020 - 2020 were made from '65 - '73

tomstractorsandtoys · Jul 14, 2019

It was factory Deere. It was in the dealers shop and when I said I never saw one on a 2510 he remarked that they sold it new. This was the owners son who was the head mechanic in a small dealership. And it was not the only one they sold like that. It is also shown in the 2510 parts book. In all my years of buying and selling tractors I have seen maybe 5 or 6 but they do exist. Tom

Tx Jim · Jul 15, 2019

The CDC pump is listed in 2510 parts catalog for both serial number ranges.

tomstractorsandtoys · Jul 15, 2019

TX Jim, Do the parts books ever miss anything? The reason I ask is a neighbor had a very high serial number 2510 and it had an electric shut off big injection pump and had a key and switch like the side console tractors had.This was back in the early 80's. I looked at the online parts book and it only list one switch(if I was looking right?).Tom

Tx Jim · Jul 15, 2019

Yes parts catalogs can contain some mistakes but probably not as often as back when paper catalogs were in use.

D- · Jul 15, 2019

We never sold any but not many 2510 anyway.
I can't remember when electric shutoff pumps
were first used on utility tractors. That probably
had something to do with 2510 having electric shutoffs
before the other Waterloo tractors. To keep Dubuque
from running two versions?
Do you remember when the small pumps first showed up on
utility tractors?

tomstractorsandtoys · Jul 15, 2019

On the 2510 the parts book does not show a switch with the electric shut off and the handful of 2510's with the little pumps I have ever seen I do not remember or did not look what for switch they used. I posted above about a neighbors 2510 that had a key switch like the side console tractors had and an electric shut off. I was not even aware of a little pump for the 1020 untill reading your post and checking the online parts book. In the area I grew up there were more 2510's and 2520's than 3020's. Almost all were diesels and a powershift was really rare. There were very few powershift 3020-4020's.It is all interesting history. I really like my 2510 and if I ever have to get down to just one tractor it will be a tough decision between the 1968 4020 Dad bought new or the 2510 I started farming with. Tom

D- · Jul 15, 2019

We got a 2510D powershift in '66. Tricycle for picker.
Sleeves leaked first year. Deere changed oring material.
Leaked again the next year. I think maybe another oring
material change. Dubuque engineers weren't smart enough
to to realize cylinder wiggle was a problem. Since 2010
engines didn't have a problem with one oring.... of course
all cylinders were made together so they couldn't wiggle.
Later I bored the original cylinders and used 2030/2520
pistons. Increased fuel to pull blower.
Installed cylinders with red siliconc instead of soap.
Ran it that way for years but don't tell anyone. Don't
want to void the warranty. It now has a 2030 block.
It's a shame parts books don't list changes by serial
number instead of engine numbers.
Enjoyed swapping info with you.
2510 is really a handy tractor.... much better than a utility tractor.

tomstractorsandtoys · Jul 15, 2019

When my 2510 needed an overhaul 15 years ago we found a 219 out of a power unit and rebuilt it and put it in. Just a little more gitty up and go than the 202. I agree 100% with you about much better than a utility. I do have a 2040 that Dad bought new that has lots of hours with few problems but it is a stripped down tractor. No independent pto or hi-low. It is a 77 which does give it the bigger hyd pump. You mentioned a picker and we picked corn for years with a 237 Deere on my 2510. Still have the picker all oiled up and setting up on blocks in the corner of the shed. Where are you located? I am in the sw corner of WI. Tom

D- · Jul 16, 2019

I'm in KY around 50 miles south of Louisville.
I've been to Eastern Wisconsin a couple of times.

Need 4020 history lesson

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