Can bad timing cause over heating?

Ran my 300 industrial today and it started to get in the red zone.i have installed new water pump, new thermostat, radiator is clean, coolant is flowing fine. Any other ideas? It was only 34 degrees today
 
Yes it can cause overheating, but it should show up as a hot exhaust manifold first, so probably not the cause.
 
I would check the temperature with an infrared gun, the gauge may show up red at a lower than normal temperature.
 
No,, When one of the liners, or cylinder sleeves,which ever you know it as, gets a small hole in it ,it will push water out of the radiator, the smaller the hole the slower this happens,, and it is very common to happen ,,it makes you want to think it's a head gasket,,but unfortunately it is almost always a hole in a liner..
 
it takes about an hour of running for it come out the over flow. Would a Napa block tester work for a hole in the liner and see if exhaust gases are in the coolant?
 
The cylinders in the engine are replaceable. The block has holes top and bottom the liners fit into. The liners are exposed to the coolant in between the top and bottom, where the seals are. The liners can develop holes in them and leak through the walls. So you can have leaks there as well as a head gasket or cracked head. look over the engine section of the manual you have. Most all these engines have wet sleeves.

Did you have the radiator cap off and actually see bubbles in the neck of the radiator or did you just see coolant coming out the overflow? If you filled it to the top before you started it; it may just be coming out due to expansion as it warms. Many radiators need to be down 2-3 inches when cold. Did the valve plate in the thermostat have a small hole (1/8" or so) in it to let air out of the block as it filled? That hole also allows a little coolant flow by the thermostat so it sees temperature change a bit sooner and opens. Coolant is a 50/50 mix not straight antifreeze?

As David G posted check the engine with an infrared temp gun. The accuracy of many new temp gauges leaves a lot to be desired. Hopefully it is just the radiator equalizing and a gauge scale being off.

Do you have a 7 psi pressure cap on the radiator with the right length for the radiator neck? (JD # AT27585)
 
Coolant was coming out the over flow. I put a new 7lb cap on it.
What should the engine temp be when running? I took the thermostat out this summer and run it with out one.
 
One of the ways I check this is to put a coolant pressure tester on the radiator cap, pump it up to about 7 psi, and then run the engine briskly for a bit watching the pressure gauge if it starts to climb to the danger mark,115 psi. or so it safe to bet on a liner failure, it is rarely the head or head gasket..be sure you are watching the pressure, if this is the problem the pressure will continue to climb till bad things happen...
 
I believe they call for a 160F thermostat for gasoline. So 160 to maybe 180 depending on ambient temperature and how hard you are working it. Since you don't have a thermostat in it, take the cap off and fill the radiator to the bottom of the filler neck. Start it and watch for bubbles in the radiator neck with the cap off. You should see bubbles if you have a hole in a liner, leaking head gasket or cracked head. Expect to lose some fluid from expansion as it warms. Put the cap on loose, so it won't build pressure, and work it if you need to get it to warm up.

Where did you get the new cap? It may be 7psi but if the length isn't right it may not be holding pressure as it should. I have attached the JD cap's dimension sheet so you can check yours to be sure.

Is the water pump tight, meaning is there any play if you grab a fan blade and try to move it front to rear, not turning it.

The NAPA tester should work. You could also put a pressure test (Maybe NAPA has a pressure tester they will rent/loan. Autozone, Advance Auto, O'Reilly's might also) on the radiator and see how long it holds and if you see any external leaks. If it drops and you don't see leaks. Let it set at least overnight and then carefully crack the oil drain plug. Back it out slowly. If it is leaking into the engine, you should get drops of coolant appearing just before the plug comes fully out of the threads.
 
I could ask around. Would it take about an hour of working the tractor to over heat or should it be sooner? I am moving snow banks with rpm set at 2300 rpms
 
As Jim said the neck on the Deere radiator is a bit deeper than a car, I use a 1 1/2" cam lock seal/quad ring to make up the
differnece
 
Start with what you can do tomorrow, if you want. Maybe rule out a few things.

You can crack the drain plug to check for coolant before you start it. (Time, no $)

You can check the water pump. (Time, no $)

You can top the radiator off, leave the cap loose, warm it up, take the cap off and check for real bubbles. Beware of hot coolant! (Time, no $)

If you don't have a temp gun, you can check the coolant temperature at the top of the radiator with a meat thermometer if you have one in the kitchen. (I'd probably keep it in the shop and get one to replace it for the kitchen. Time, a few $ if you replace a thermometer)

You can check your cap to see that it matches the cut sheet. (Time, no $)
 
I do have a infered gun to check temp! What should be the operating temp with out a t stat installed?

I will check for bubbles

Wouldn’t the tractor over heat a lot faster then an hour?
 
Here is the cut sheet, I had to move to the computer to get it.

mvphoto31493.jpg


Tim S is talking about the gasket used in an 1-1/2" female hose coupling, that has two levers you move to lock it to the male fitting, like tankers and totes often use.
 
The temp gun is to check to see if your new gauge is reading correctly, or at least close. Try to check near where the new gauge probe is in the head,as well as at the thermostat housing.

As for operating temp without a thermostat it is hard to say. There are variables, ambient air temp, how hard you are working it, how well it is running, how clean the radiator is externally and internally, etc. I doubt you would hit 180 tomorrow unless you are working it extremely hard.
 
I was not able to find a pressure tester but I did run the tractor up to operating temp on the gauge and there were no bubbles coming from the coolant fill a hole in the radiator.
Then I ran the tractor longer and it started to get warm close to the red hotline and I used the infrared gun in the side of the motor was around 210° so I loosened the radiator cap just enough but not to take it off and that seem to keep the temperature down and it never seem to overheat after that. So is this a faulty radiator cap or perhaps even though I bought a new a couple months ago?

I did adjust the timing with the only Mark that was on the crank pulley and I adjusted the timing so that Mark lined up when I was just idling. The crank pulley Mark just had a zero on it and that was it
 
I don't have a manual for a 300, don't know if you have gotten one yet. I do have a 2030 manual. Those gas engines had a "S" mark on the crank pulley. The instructions for timing the 2030 engine with a light, are to run it at 2500 rpm (basically full throttle) when adjusting the timing to the mark on the pulley. Timing at 2500 would set the timing with the centrifugal advance in the distributor in the advanced state. The centrifugal advance would not be advanced at idle. If the mark you have is the mark for the advanced timing your timing could be too far advanced when the engine is up to speed. Hook the timing light up and see if the mark moves and which way, when you speed the engine up to full rpm. (I think you should see it move clockwise as speed increases.) If it does, try setting the distributor to the mark with it running at 2500 rpm, then see how it starts. If it doesn't move you have problems in the centrifugal advance of the distributor.

A radiator cap increases the pressure of the coolant. Increasing the pressure increases the boiling point of the coolant, allowing an engine to run hotter, and not boil the coolant off, than it could with a non-pressurized system. Like an open pot compared to a covered pot compared to a pressure cooker. A higher pressure cap should not increase the temperature, that is a function of the engine (like a stove under the pot). The high pressure cap increases the risk of developing a radiator leak from being over the system design pressure. (A thermostat reduces flow to the radiator until a minimum operating temperature is reached.)

Did it reach a point where it stopped pushing coolant out of the radiator? Have you checked to see if your radiator is clean externally? Over time oil and coolant leaks, dust, dirt, grass, seeds, etc. can reduce the air flow through the radiator fins and tubes. Take an air hose and blow through the radiator, from the rear (fan side) to front and see what comes out.
 
I could not get the zero timing Mark to line up when I was at high idle or 2500 rpm’s. It would only lineup when I was idling around 750. I’ve looked all over that crank pulley in there is no other Mark besides the zero Mark. That’s why I figured it was at Idol mark. When I advance the throttle the timing Mark moves counterclockwise.

Is it bad that I run the tractor with the radiator cap not fully seated? It did seem to drop the temperature of the engine to the middle of the green on the temperature gage.

I do have a book but it’s for a 301A not a 300. But I believe it’s the same motor
 
Counterclockwise would be right, I was thinking wrong, engine turns clockwise. That shows the advance is working. You would have to slow the engine below the 750 rpm to see if the advance is completely "off" at that speed. Did you previously physically confirm the where the mark is in relationship to TDC?

How bad running with the radiator cap loose is a discussion item, best I can say is, it is not as designed.

Does the top radiator get as hot, as quick, as the engine? I ask as I have heard of some water pump impeller issues. If the impeller was slipping or worn out it may not be circulating the coolant properly. With the cap off do you see the coolant "flowing past" when you look in the radiator? Or is it just "drifting by". My thought, right or wrong, on this is the higher pressure could be slowing at natural thermo-syphon flow (without a thermostat in the system to restrict the flow) that would take place by rising the boiling point. Releasing the pressure may let that action take place at a lower temperature.

Ignition timing is likely the same. The engines are similar. Tractor Data shows the 300 as a 135 cu.in. and the 301A as a 164 cu.in.
 

The coolant hose was made much cooler then the engine block.
I could see the coolant circulating around. But didn’t notice bubbles.
I never confirmed TDC.
the lower radiator hose felt cooler then the motor and didn’t seem full of coolant.(not sure it should be completely full, but I could squeeze easily)
I installed a new water pump last summer
 
The lower hose should be full even if it doesn't feel like it. It would be hard to see how it couldn't be. It should be cooler than the engine as it is carrying coolant that has gone down through the radiator back to the block. For consistency use your temp gun on the top tank of the radiator when you check, hoses aren't metal and can transfer heat differently.

I would get a 160F thermostat and put in it to try. It may be doing "funny" things as far as circulation without a thermostat throttling the flow. It should have one and it can't hurt to try at this point.
 
If you are seeing 210 with no thermostat in 30 degree weather, something is wrong.

I would probably agree with Tim S on combustion gas issue, you can get kits to test.

If timing was that slow you would really know it, would sound blah, manifold red hot and no power.
 
To David G's and Tim's point on exhaust gases. You asked early on if a NAPA block tester kit would work on a hole in a liner. Yes, it should. Get one this week and try it, it may pick up gases even though you haven't seen bubbles in the coolant. If the test is positive, you know it needs a teardown.
 
(quoted from post at 17:32:46 02/17/19) To David G's and Tim's point on exhaust gases. You asked early on if a NAPA block tester kit would work on a hole in a liner. Yes, it should. Get one this week and try it, it may pick up gases even though you haven't seen bubbles in the coolant. If the test is positive, you know it needs a teardown.
Is it ok to run for a while if I do find exhaust gases in the coolant? Till I get time & $$ to fix?
 

If you have exhaust gases it won't get better running it. Overheating is not good in general.

If it is a hole in a liner, or anywhere coolant can get into a cylinder, there is a good chance it will start getting coolant in the engine oil sooner or later. That can lead to bearing damage if run much. Cracking the drain plug, after it has set, to check for coolant will warn you if, and how much, it is leaking to the oil.

If the coolant fills on top of a piston it could do damage when it turns over.

The easy answer is don't run it and ideally you wouldn't run it until repaired. However you know your circumstances and how bad you need it. You may need to run it to keep your drive open. Keeping checking the drain plug, run it the minimum needed, don't let it overheat, etc. and you may get through the snow season, if that is your concern. Most people have done things that are not ideal whether they admit it or not. We each must decide for ourselves, the risk vs reward in the end.
 
Engine oil has no water in it yet and the coolant seems to say the same. I will try and find a block test kit this week to confirm if I am getting gases.
What would an approximate cost to replace a bad sleeve?
 

I would expect you would end up replacing all the sleeves and pistons, not just a sleeve, if you open it up. The sleeves erode and develop holes through from the coolant side. The other sleeves may be close to failing if one has. You would likely end up getting at least an in-overhaul kit, so ball park 500 to 800 for the kit, then add head work, etc. Your crank will be a big unknown until you can check it. If the crank needs work the engine has to come out. Would you do the labor or send it to a shop? You might get by in the 1500 range if you do it; double it, or more, for a shop (crank work would up this). Someone else on here may have a better estimate.
 
(quoted from post at 10:25:08 02/18/19) I wouldn’t do it myself. Was hoping it wouldn’t be that much. Ouch

Having a dealer shop do it will be even bigger $$$. It wouldn't be worth it to have a place like Nortrax or one of the "green" dealers do it, just my opinion. Hopefully you have or can find someone local to you that might be capable. Good luck.
 
I bought the combustion gas kit from Napa today and ran the test in the blue dye never change color I had a very good seal so it looks like there’s no gas is getting into the coolant don’t know where I go from here besides just running it with the radiator cap half on see if that works.
 
There must be something. I would probably run it with the cap loose if I needed it, given the exhaust gas test; while I continued to try to find the cause of its running hot. I would crack the oil pan drain plug regularly before starting, especially after it sets a couple days, to see if I see any coolant drops.

Some review of where you have been.

New gauge, new water pump, new 7 psi radiator cap, no thermostat, Appearance of coolant flow in radiator, no visible bubbles in the radiator, test for exhaust gas was negative, temp runs high with radiator cap on tight and drop with a loose cap, it takes about an hour of running to get hot. You were unsuccessful so far on locating a pressure tester for the cooling system.

Questions/checks/information:

1. Did it have a working gauge prior to the one you put in?
2. Do you know when this overheating started?
3. Coolant is 50/50 antifreeze and water? Green antifreeze? Mixing types can cause problems/sludge in some cases.
4. Does it get hot if it just sits running, or only if working?
5. Does it stop pushing coolant out of the radiator after a time and if you don’t add any does it push it out again the next time you use it?
6. Why did you remove the thermostat last summer?
7. What was wrong with the water pump that caused you to replace it?
8. Where did you get the pump and was it identical to the old one?
9. Can you see through the radiator front to rear?
10. Does the air the fan pulls through the radiator feel hot?
11. Is the fan on the right way?
12. If you loosen the fitting at the temp gauge bulb does coolant come out?
13. Temp gun reading at temp gauge bulb? (You said your temp gun showed 210° on the side of the block, check at the gauge bulb location)
14. Temp gun reading at thermostat housing? (Shoot metal not hoses)
15. Temp gun reading at radiator top tank?
16. Temp gun reading at radiator bottom tank?
17. Temp gun reading at water pump?
18. When it is hot and running at 2300 rpm, where you said you work it at, look at the lower radiator hose. Is it collapsing? You mentioned you didn’t think it was full as it was soft. A bad hose collapsing would restrict flow. Some lower hoses were supposed to have coil springs inside them to prevent collapse.
19. Are the clamps on both ends of the lower radiator hose tight?
20. Anything extra tied in to the cooling system – like a block heater?
21. Starts and runs good now?

Hopefully others will weigh in with other things to check.
 
The original gauge was broken when I bought it
I replaced the water pump because the fan bearing was wobbly
I washed and degreased the radiator fins
It would get hot last summer when I was working it
Doesn’t seem to get hot when idleing
I changed the oil in November and it didn’t have any water in it
When it was overheating this summer I checked for a stuck thermostat and noticed it didn’t have one in it so I left it as it was
Lower radiator hose does have a pin hole leak. I noticed when it was running and I squeezed the hose and a small stream sprayed out. I have a new one coming.
I ordered the water pump from tractor parts ASAP.com
The top section of radiator has a section of fins that are punched in
That’s all I can think of at the moment
 
You can check for water without draining the oil. After the tractor has set for a day or more. Carefully, and slowly, back the drain plug out; just before it comes out of the threads you will often see coolant droplets if it has leaked internally.

It will be interesting to see if the new hose helps, the old doesn't sound very good.
 

Washed and decreased the radiator while in the chaaaia or while out on the shop floor ?
I throughly cleaned a rad and was all proud of myself for having 100%. For other reasons we later removed the rad and when looking through it , had the surprise of how much greasy mud was still on the fins.
Has someone been pouring tap water from a drilled well into the coolant system ? If lime or calcium has plated onto the inner surfaces of the rad, she ain’t gonna cool.
Some applications are snooty about thermostats and will over heat when operated without a stat .
 

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