Stanadyne JDB 2729 injection pump and JD 219 engine

Hi all, new to this forum. We have a John Deere 219 engine with a Stanadyne JDB 2729 injection pump. We just rebuilt the engine. We static timed the injector pump with #1 cylinder at TDC compression stroke and injector timing lines lined up. We couldn't check for backlash on the gear since the engine is so tight we can't crank it by hand. This injector pump came from a different JD 219 engine, possibly turbo. We bled the fuel lines going to the injecors and have good fuel there. While trying to start it, it just smokes and almost runs but will not start. Smoke is white. We're unsure of the hours of the injectors, but the head has been sent out and shopped. We're thinking it's either the injector pump out of time or bad injectors. If it's the timing should we rotate the pump on the shaft or use the timing screw at the bottom of the pump?
Any insight or suggestions would be appreciated!!
I have spent several hours searching the web for any answers and can't find anything that fits our dilemma.

Sounds like timing, were the valves rocking on cylinder four, exhaust almost closed and intake just starting open at TDC to MAKE SURE one is on compression stroke when pump marks were aligned? If not, and cylinder one is rocking with pump lines in the window then the pump is 180 degrees, 1/2 turn off. DON'T play with the lower screw. Did this pump come from a running engine? If not it still could have trouble inside. Also pump weight retainer in pump could be 1/2 turn off too. Far as the engine goes, are ALL the valves in the head within spec in relation to the head surface? If valves and seats are ground too far, sinking the valves too much will drop compression starting heat enough to give you the same trouble.

Not trying to be nasty but you just spent how much on an engine rebuild and did not have the injectors checked? When overhauling an engine we usually replace the injectors and even have the new ones checked before installing. My pump shop checks them for free. I agree with the post below that you more than likely have a timing issue.Tom

Thanks for the reply. As far as TDC we wathced #1 rocker arms go through their cycle and stuck the bolt through the bell housing in the divot on the flywheel. Both valves were closed on #1, we didn't watch what #4 was doing. We sent the head off to a shop where they checked the valve seating and such, so I "assume" they knew what they were doing. We set the valve opening adjustment according to the book. I think it's .014 for the exhaust and .018 for the intake, I'm going by memory on them, so I might have them reversed or the numbers wrong, but whatever the book said is what we did.

The pump itself is unknown. The pump came from a different owner, so we don't know the history of if was working, or when. I took it apart (except for the barrel) and everything looked intact, I kept it as clean as possible without having a filtered clean room. It had the updated weight basket and no obvious wear, so I think that is ok.

As far as the injectors, I agree, it's one of those things that my brothers have rebuilt several engines like this over the years and rarely changed the injectors without problems. I see they're around $20 a pop on e**y, so pretty cheap. I would have to ask my brother what the history is on them if he knows.
We plan to loosen and turn the pump to see if it's the timing.
We know enough to get things right most of the time, get lucky other times, and have just enough knowledge to be dangerous other times.

Out of curiosity, if the pump is 180 off would it still "try" to start? So far, it's been like it's almost running, but as soon as you let go of the starter, it stops.

If it's 180 off it won't even spin faster as a general rule. So it's likely that you've ignored timing advance somehow/somewhere to have the IP timed to TDC instead of initial advance where it should be set.

But fuel is being injected so that might be lighting off giving false assumptions. I would try the IP at 10 degrees more advance than you have, but would surely like to see another line show up in the window to set it too. Some IP don't have the initial advance line on them (new weight cage in particular) and in the instructions you are told how to make one for your particular engine according to a chart. Service Manual SM2045 if you can find it.

If you are on TDC #1 compression/fire, #4 will have both valves just barely open, exhaust is closing, intake is opening. Easy to positively confirm proper cam/crank correlation by this means which is why most mechanics ask for that confirmation. And those that are in the habit of getting paid for their work always do it as a matter of course.

And yes you are reversed on valve clearance, exhaust will always be the larger clearance and while your numbers sound about right, it costs nothing to double check the manual.

You might find this hard to believe but I had a 329 in a combine that I assembled 180 out and it started and ran. More white smoke that I ever seen a diesel make but did start and run. Even had enough power to get from shed out to the shop. Tom

We don't think it was 180 out. We pulled the pump and spun it 180 and didn't get any smoke at all. So pulled it again and spun another 180 to where it was. Getting some smoke, but still in the process of bleeding the injector lines.

We were wondering about having improper timing advance, but we don't have the SM2045, just the JD service manual for the machine. It said to set #1 TDC compression and line up the timing marks in the pump. I have searched the web, youtube, and any other source I could find about setting an advance. What little I did find all said the same thing about TDC and timing marks. We did watch for additional timing marks on the basket as it rotated and didn't see any. This pump does have the all metal basket, I don't know if this pump was made before Stanadyne made the change and was updated or someone else updated it. Either way, only one mark on it. If someone out there has the IP manual, I would interested in what it says.

I'll make a point to make sure #4 valves are doing just that.

We think it's narrowed to either injector pump issues, timing, or injectors. We will try to narrow it down further.

We do have a DBG FC 431---2DH pump, we tried that and no fuel out of it at all. It had been sitting a while and after inspection: Disintegrated flex ring, broken transfer pump wiper spring, and stuck fuel rods. I have 2 seal kits on the way for both pumps.

Thanks for the info so far!!

If in doubt of the marks, you may check that:
- Cylinder 4 valves are in balance when you think that you are on cylinder 1 TDC. The engine will start if you just have the injection pump deliver fuel on 1st cylinder when 4 is in balance. You can also visually check that while cranking quite easily. The front line should squirt exactly when the cylinder 4 valves trip.

- Second, you can easily check your timing marks on the pump by removing #1 fuel line on the pump and turn the pump until the rotor hole line up with the fitting hole. Easy to check with a light.

You may also check crankshaft timing by bushing on valves with a croww bar or whatever tool you have and moving the engine by hand around what you think is the TDC

I hope this helps? Good luck with starting it.
Lastly, how old is the fuel?

(quoted from post at 10:08:17 01/04/19) Not trying to be nasty but you just spent how much on an engine rebuild and did not have the injectors checked? When overhauling an engine we usually replace the injectors and even have the new ones checked before installing. My pump shop checks them for free. I agree with the post below that you more than likely have a timing issue.Tom

Click to expand...

Was thinking something similar . How many engines have been rebuilt when all it needed was injectors ?
Or the number of engines worn out early because dribbling injectors increased the rate of cylinder bore wear .
Operating with coolant temps below 180F also accelerates bore wear.

Video link at the very bottom below seems to suggest that part of the static advance for initial timing is found in the engine manual, because it's not in SM2045. IP manual does have active mechanical advance at RPM information which is not this data. And that information is meant for test bench use.

Assumptions abound here, but you can't have the proper mark on your weight cage if you didn't order from Deere by exact engine/tractor information. Each application shows a bit different timing number by SM2045 which is why they publish each pump number with it's data separately. 2729 is correct for this engine? I assume new metal cage will have mark for #1 fuel port alignment only and it needs another to time it by at engine setting. But as in the video, you roll the engine BTDC and then line up the IP timing marks which should be different than #1 port alignment and it starts to get a bit confusing. And when you have new weight cage you especially need to double check the marks on it with tool #20401 shown in these two shots of the same page done this way so the information can remain somewhat readable.







I think I've opened my email, send me one so I can send back what I've got here as an attachment to the return email. Found it thru diligent digging, but it was no easy task at all, so I'll save you a couple handfuls of hair. Others are welcome to this offer as well. Just put SM in the subject line so I can find it easier. As I understand it email option only exists in classic view and it's not available in modern view.

Here is a couple more links to discussions that might help too.
<a href="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=1168436" target="_blank">4010 injector pump</a>

<a href="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=crawlers&th=64953" target="_blank">P/N 20401 Timing Line Locator indicator</a>
Video Installing a Diesel Injection Pump & Setting the Timing

Thanks for the links! Common sense has prevailed, and I ordered new injectors. Hindsight seems to be better than current vision. We tried to start it with changing the timing (moving the pump), from stop to stop, moving it slightly then trying again, etc. There were places where it didn't smoke much at all to the best spot where it almost started. When we put the engine together we triple checked all the gear alignments and the cams, so those should be correct.

I checked the machine service manual, all it said to do is get #1 cylinder on TDC compression and line up the timing lines in the IP. Nothing about before or after TDC. That's why we were wondering if the IP has a specific timing setting. As far as the timing mark being in the wrong place, I wouldn't know. This pump came with a 440B with the engine taken apart from a guy, who got it from someone else (a relative of some sort). He said they had flex pipe as a muffler and it set a while, so water got in and seized the engine. Someone took the engine apart with the intent of rebuilding it, which never happened. The price was right, so we bought it. The machine we bought (440B) is working fine with the engine we put in it. This engine is for an older machine (440A). I would think that this was probably working before they took it off, which is why, like some previous posts suggested, of suspecting the injectors. The fuel is a couple months old, but no water or air in the filter. That's a good idea to check for the opening.

We're going to do a few checks: take the exhaust manifold off and see if it smokes out of all cylinders or which ones, see when the IP opens up, and a few others.

If nothing obvious, our course of action is pull the head, take the old injectors out, clean the bores, put the head on, check the compression, and put the new ones in. We will be able to make sure and mark what TDC truly is. We also have a different injector pump, which was given to us from a guy we know getting rid of things in his garage. He said it worked but leaked. It has a broken transfer pump blade spring, a dissolved flex ring, and bad seals. A seal kit is on it's way to rebuild that one and try it.

I looked them up and both IPs are used on this engine, so we "think" it should work. We've never had such a time with an engine after a rebuild, which drives the point of why to be sure of every part that goes on. Our two unknowns are the injectors and the pump!

You do not need to remive head ti check tdc. Just push on a valve while rolling the engine.

Did you try a very little sniff of ether.
I have seen engines vey hard to get going right after being put back together. Pull starting could be a good option to help start with rings hat are not set.

We did try just a bit of ether a few times which didn't help, we also pulled it around the property behind the loader, same results, just smoke, but thanks for the ideas.

The reason we are going to pull the head is to pull and clean out the injector bores. No sense in letting whatever is in the bores fall into the cylinders. Also I found out this head was not serviced, the serviced one was a head we put on the other engine in the B. So we can look at the valves again as well. We'll try a few things today, but if goes like it has, it's to plan B. I do appreciate all the suggestions, a lot of them we thought of and tried, and others we didn't think of, so it all helps.

Update. Over the past couple weeks we tried a few different things. We ended up pulling the head to check the valve seating, it's fine. Ordered and tried new injectors, no difference. We even took the injector pump off and tried it on another machine with the same type engine, the other machine ran fine so we took the IP from that machine and tried again, still no dice.

After having eliminating all we could think of we pulled of the gear cover to check the timing alignment, still good. Of course to pull the cover we had to take off the alternator, air cleaner, water pump and radiator and loosen up the oil pan. We decided to move the injector gear one tooth counter clockwise from the perspective of being on the machine. That seemed to be it. We didn't get it started, but it was firing. It was getting cold out: -1 and 6:30pm so it was time to quit. Hopefully once it warms up a bit we can see if it'll start and put things back together.

It just seems odd to me that we installed and aligned the injector gear just as directed in the service manual and it was a tooth off. We even tried moving the IP from stop to stop in small increments to see if that would work, but apparently we didn't have enough adjustment available to get it to fire. Lots of smoke though. I thought about the timing mark in the IP might have been off, but it worked on the other machine. I guess just a bad mark on the gear itself. Anyone else seen this?