- Thread starter Bob
- Start date
Hay maker2
Member
In my response before, I still have not had time to install mine yet.
As stated, the valve that Deere used is a N/C valve, BUT it is a Metered Flow valve. In other words there is an orifice inside of this valve. The exact purpose of this orifice I will probably never know, but I ASSUME that the Deere Engineer felt it was necessary as I ASSUME that they did not want 2200PSI slamming the stoke valve closed. Yes, the stoke valve will probably get the 2200PSI against it, but I ASSUME that it will be "metered", or reduced flow so the stroke control valve close smoothly instead of slamming. I want to think if you slam the stroke control valve closed too many time you might damage it or the housing, but then again I am ASSUMING, and ASSUMING makes an a$$ out of you and me!
Hay maker2
Member
N/C = Normally Closed
Under normal operation the valve is closed, blocking high pressure oil from pushing the stoke valve down to destroke the pump. If you apply 12VDC or crank the engine the valve opens up and allows 2200PSI to close the stroke valve. Once you remove the 12VDC or stop cranking the engine the valve closes and blocks 2200PSI from closing the stroke valve.
The valve that Deere uses has an orifice in it, is this to reduce flow or pressure I really do not know which, but it must be there for a reason. I was able to acquire the original drawings of this valve that's how I figured that out. The size of the orifice I really do not know.
Honestly, Deere wants $212.00 for the valve and that is reasonable. Price a quality valve of a similar size and Deere is not to far out of line on this. I know people will tell me that they are ripping them off. You can get a $50.00 Hydra-Force valve and potentially damage your pump or something else. There is a reason why the Deere valve is unique.
The killer here, is the cavity that the Deere valve threads into, its unique to that valve. I have tried to source it, but no on has it. I did find a company that can make it, but they want to make a small batch of 10 and charge a $1100.00
Bob,
i apologize, i must have missed that part of thread with your email. I dont always catch up with all the posts. I will follow up with that a little bit further down.
Haymaker, i apologize i am not trying to step on toes, but i really dont understand much of your statement at your 7:57 pm post. It may just be a terminology issue.
The fittings that go to and from the pump itself are off the shelf fittings. There is a small SAE pressure side port and i think a #6 SAE on the return side. Then there is only the manifold and the solenoid and hydraulic lines.
I took all the information from the parts manuals and explained the situation to hydraulic engineering group i do a lot of work with and they matched up the solenoid no problem, then they outfitted a matching manifold. The group i worked with have been doing hydraulic engineering for 20-30 years each. Very knowledgeable people.
They did bring up same kind of point that HayMaker did, as far as wondering if or how hard would it be on the pump to have the solenoid "snap" shut.
We looked at the application and we talked about it and they came to the conclusion that based on the pressure and return port sizes they didnt think that the flow rate could be high enough during engine cranking, less than 200 rpm, and initial starting that the closing of the solenoid would have a negative impact on the pump. They thought that if you were running at full speed, full pressure and started opening and closing that solenoid then yes, over time you could have an issue, but since this is for use under starting conditions, they felt confident in what we did.
The parts manual itself gives you all the part numbers except the manifold and it also doesnt give you a price for it. However, the solenoid is an off the shelf, nothing special. I will make a second post here to show the pictures of what i have. The first one i used was only a 10vdc solenoid because thats what they had on hand, but the next ones will be 12vdc, but since its only engaged long enough to start the tractor then should be fine.
i apologize, i must have missed that part of thread with your email. I dont always catch up with all the posts. I will follow up with that a little bit further down.
Haymaker, i apologize i am not trying to step on toes, but i really dont understand much of your statement at your 7:57 pm post. It may just be a terminology issue.
The fittings that go to and from the pump itself are off the shelf fittings. There is a small SAE pressure side port and i think a #6 SAE on the return side. Then there is only the manifold and the solenoid and hydraulic lines.
I took all the information from the parts manuals and explained the situation to hydraulic engineering group i do a lot of work with and they matched up the solenoid no problem, then they outfitted a matching manifold. The group i worked with have been doing hydraulic engineering for 20-30 years each. Very knowledgeable people.
They did bring up same kind of point that HayMaker did, as far as wondering if or how hard would it be on the pump to have the solenoid "snap" shut.
We looked at the application and we talked about it and they came to the conclusion that based on the pressure and return port sizes they didnt think that the flow rate could be high enough during engine cranking, less than 200 rpm, and initial starting that the closing of the solenoid would have a negative impact on the pump. They thought that if you were running at full speed, full pressure and started opening and closing that solenoid then yes, over time you could have an issue, but since this is for use under starting conditions, they felt confident in what we did.
The parts manual itself gives you all the part numbers except the manifold and it also doesnt give you a price for it. However, the solenoid is an off the shelf, nothing special. I will make a second post here to show the pictures of what i have. The first one i used was only a 10vdc solenoid because thats what they had on hand, but the next ones will be 12vdc, but since its only engaged long enough to start the tractor then should be fine.
Dang, i keep forgetting things i wanted to include and cant edit posts haha
so my first attempt is on my 500A/3020 diesel backhoe. However i am not done just yet because i have some other issues i need to clean up on it at well, but the next one is going on a 5020, hopefully next month. So i will take a few pics of that once i am done and have it installed.
A person needs to cut a hole or two into the plate covering the pump and come up with a mounting bracket that looks clean as well. On a previous thread i showed a picture of a pump and i think it was Tx Jim that told me i couldnt re-orient the pump face plate so as to not cut holes in the cover.
so my first attempt is on my 500A/3020 diesel backhoe. However i am not done just yet because i have some other issues i need to clean up on it at well, but the next one is going on a 5020, hopefully next month. So i will take a few pics of that once i am done and have it installed.
A person needs to cut a hole or two into the plate covering the pump and come up with a mounting bracket that looks clean as well. On a previous thread i showed a picture of a pump and i think it was Tx Jim that told me i couldnt re-orient the pump face plate so as to not cut holes in the cover.
Glen D Anderson
Member
Thank you for sharing your research.
While I'm no engineer I do concur with the assessment that the valve's cycle speed is not likely to cause a problem as it will be operating with the pump spinning at cranking speeds or low idle at the most.
Looking at some older Parker literature I had on a thumb drive it appears that their DSL101 series valve would work for this application although I wonder if the near zero leakage of a poppet style valve would be necessary? Spool style valves usually come cheaper...…….
What style of valve did you end up using? Manufacturer P/N?
One other question. What is actually being controlled with this add on? The pump's own stroke control valve remotely or is it creating another path for oil to unload the pistons? I've always wondered...…..
Glen D Anderson,
I cant tell you exactly on the pump because if you look at the manual destroking kit, its an SAE port with a T on it driving down a pin inside the pump. As near as i can tell that is. i know enough about hydraulics to be dangerous so all i can do is rely on others smarter than me.
Ill dig back through my emails with Fluidtech and get cutsheets and part numbers for what i bought from them, which was just the solenoid, the manifold and a nut. The rest i just matched up fittings at the local hydraulic shop and had them make a couple hoses. once i get this settled out some i may be able to get away from using 2 fittings on the pressure side and do something a bit different with the hoses, but, first things first. Get one thing done, fully test it out and go from there.
I cant tell you exactly on the pump because if you look at the manual destroking kit, its an SAE port with a T on it driving down a pin inside the pump. As near as i can tell that is. i know enough about hydraulics to be dangerous so all i can do is rely on others smarter than me.
Ill dig back through my emails with Fluidtech and get cutsheets and part numbers for what i bought from them, which was just the solenoid, the manifold and a nut. The rest i just matched up fittings at the local hydraulic shop and had them make a couple hoses. once i get this settled out some i may be able to get away from using 2 fittings on the pressure side and do something a bit different with the hoses, but, first things first. Get one thing done, fully test it out and go from there.
(quoted from post at 10:14:11 12/31/18)
Thank you for sharing your research.
While I'm no engineer I do concur with the assessment that the valve's cycle speed is not likely to cause a problem as it will be operating with the pump spinning at cranking speeds or low idle at the most.
Looking at some older Parker literature I had on a thumb drive it appears that their DSL101 series valve would work for this application although I wonder if the near zero leakage of a poppet style valve would be necessary? Spool style valves usually come cheaper...…….
What style of valve did you end up using? Manufacturer P/N?
One other question. What is actually being controlled with this add on? The pump's own stroke control valve remotely or is it creating another path for oil to unload the pistons? I've always wondered...…..
Glen, thanks for the information.
I dug into it a bit, and it looks to me like the "orifice", or the "bypassed fluid" is simply a small amount of oil leaking past the pilot operated poppet valve when under pressure, and is such a small amount, (10 drops a minute at 3000 psi) it doesn't affect normal operation of the radial piston pump/cause it to destroke), yet is needed to make the pilot operated valve "shift" when activated.
Just MHO!
Hay maker2
Member
(quoted from post at 16:14:11 12/31/18)
Thank you for sharing your research.
While I'm no engineer I do concur with the assessment that the valve's cycle speed is not likely to cause a problem as it will be operating with the pump spinning at cranking speeds or low idle at the most.
Looking at some older Parker literature I had on a thumb drive it appears that their DSL101 series valve would work for this application although I wonder if the near zero leakage of a poppet style valve would be necessary? Spool style valves usually come cheaper...…….
What style of valve did you end up using? Manufacturer P/N?
One other question. What is actually being controlled with this add on? The pump's own stroke control valve remotely or is it creating another path for oil to unload the pistons? I've always wondered...…..
Your Dealer is expensive....
my price below
Glen D Anderson
Member
Just wondering how this project turned out?
Assuming the results were positive would you mind sharing the P/Ns for the solenoid / valve & the manifold / cavity?
TIA
Assuming the results were positive would you mind sharing the P/Ns for the solenoid / valve & the manifold / cavity?
TIA
Hay maker2
Member
(quoted from post at 15:02:10 05/24/21) Just wondering how this project turned out?
Assuming the results were positive would you mind sharing the P/Ns for the solenoid / valve & the manifold / cavity?
TIA
Yes I have had mine installed for 18 months on my 4020. I liked it so much I installed them on all my JD's with closed center hydraulics. It is a PITA to install it on a 4020, but a 40 series was simple. These are cheaper then batteries and starters. Don't waste your money on a gear reduction starter either. Pics are from my 4020
Hay maker2
Member
Hay maker2
Member
Glen D Anderson
Member
Thanks for the info.
I can read the numbers off of the cavity & coil but I don't think the "DSL 081" that is visible in your one picture is the complete number for the cartridge.....
Out of curiosity, it had been tlock0331 that had posted pictures of the parts he rounded up for this conversion on this thread originally so just wondering if you 2 were working together on this or? He had been working with Hydraforce parts but yours are Parker........
I can read the numbers off of the cavity & coil but I don't think the "DSL 081" that is visible in your one picture is the complete number for the cartridge.....
Out of curiosity, it had been tlock0331 that had posted pictures of the parts he rounded up for this conversion on this thread originally so just wondering if you 2 were working together on this or? He had been working with Hydraforce parts but yours are Parker........
Hay maker2
Member
This is sheer coincidence that we both were working on it at the same time.
I felt that Parker is better than a China equivalent, thats why I used Parker.
I felt that Parker is better than a China equivalent, thats why I used Parker.
Glen D Anderson
Member
I see, makes sense...
Do you have the full P/N for the cartridge that you used?
Also, confirming the connections to the pump that you made reference to in this thread: https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1439363&highlight=
Destroke valve inlet connects to port E on the pump?
Destroke valve outlet connects to port K on the pump?
This will be going onto our side console 4020 to start with & eventually our earlier model 3020 & 4020....
Thanks again for the help & sharing your P/Ns!
Do you have the full P/N for the cartridge that you used?
Also, confirming the connections to the pump that you made reference to in this thread: https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1439363&highlight=
Destroke valve inlet connects to port E on the pump?
Destroke valve outlet connects to port K on the pump?
This will be going onto our side console 4020 to start with & eventually our earlier model 3020 & 4020....
Thanks again for the help & sharing your P/Ns!
Hay maker2
Member
Part numbers:
Parker Destroke
Coil
S8LW
Valve
DSL081N
Cavity
08-2-A6T
Yes you are correct on the ports.
Be advised that there are different size fittings based upon the version of pump that you have.
I am also in the process of adding a brake accumulator to my 4020 too. I have all the parts, just got to do to.
Parker Destroke
Coil
S8LW
Valve
DSL081N
Cavity
08-2-A6T
Yes you are correct on the ports.
Be advised that there are different size fittings based upon the version of pump that you have.
I am also in the process of adding a brake accumulator to my 4020 too. I have all the parts, just got to do to.
Glen D Anderson
Member
Perfect, thank you!
Glen D Anderson
Member
Do you mind sharing the P/Ns from the valve you used? I'd like to compare against the Parker dealers that I'm getting pricing from...
Glen D Anderson
Member
Ok, so I was checking out these numbers & there appears to be a discrepancy.
You said the valve was a DSL081[b:383d3f47e1]N[/b:383d3f47e1] & according to Parker's literature "N" denotes a normally open configuration. That does not make sense to me as the pilot pressure to the compensator should only be present during cranking.
That made me wonder so I looked closer at your pictures and noticed that there is a "C" on the cartridge. The "C" in Parker's literature denotes a normally closed configuration which jives with my understanding of how we are unloading the pump during cranking
Can I assume that the "N" was just a typo?
You said the valve was a DSL081[b:383d3f47e1]N[/b:383d3f47e1] & according to Parker's literature "N" denotes a normally open configuration. That does not make sense to me as the pilot pressure to the compensator should only be present during cranking.
That made me wonder so I looked closer at your pictures and noticed that there is a "C" on the cartridge. The "C" in Parker's literature denotes a normally closed configuration which jives with my understanding of how we are unloading the pump during cranking
Can I assume that the "N" was just a typo?
Hay maker2
Member
Yes you are correct. It is a typo.
It is a closed valve
It is a closed valve
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