Please bear with me as I am posting from my phone. I washed the tractor real good the other day and after it wouldn't start acted like no ground. Figured I knocked off a wire so I started digging into it. I wiggled a few cables at the switch and it started. Yesterday I went out to start the tractor so i could do my fluid change and hydraulic replumb and it's deader than a door nail. I might have left a switch on but the tractor batteries were dead when i got it. . I am charging the batteries but it looks like someone has messed with the starting circuit on this. I found a wiring diagram and my tractor is not wired like it. My tractor is 24v but the negative cable on the left side is going to the back rear of the starter and the positive is going to the top solenoid post, in the diagram it is reversed. In addition the is a set of blue wires and brown wires that are tied together on mine and going to the same top post on the solenoid as my positive, where as the diagram has the 2 blue wires going to the top solenoid post and the two brown wires going to the bottom left. In addition there is an added wire going to the same solenoi post as the yellow wire that goes to the starter button bypassing the clutch safety switch. All other wires match the diagram an dress far as location and continuity. What has the previous owner done here? Should I change it back? Could this current set up be killing the battery? I will follow up with some pictures of diagrams in a minute.
- Thread starter GunGeek
- Start date
Here is a link to the pictures of the diagrams. They are large images so I don't want to post them directly. The yellow page shows my current wiring at starter. All other wiring appears to match the second picture.
http://imgur.com/a/Q119i
http://imgur.com/a/Q119i
It's not uncommon after all these years for the battery polarity to the stater to get reversed. That, in itself isn't causing your problems.
Having the blue and the brown wires both connected to the solenoid post (which in the case is (+)) powers all accessories off the the (+) 12 Volt side and NOTHING off of the (-) negative side defeats the OEM intention of having half of the loads on each battery.
Having the blue and the brown wires both connected to the solenoid post (which in the case is (+)) powers all accessories off the the (+) 12 Volt side and NOTHING off of the (-) negative side defeats the OEM intention of having half of the loads on each battery.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
JD 24 volt systems are both negative & positive ground for accessories(lights & fuel gauge) but starting & charging circuits have no ground. Ditto what Bob stated about blue & brown wires.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
PS: if your tractor has a 24 volt system it's not a '69 model.
Ok got everything switched over including the main POS and NEG, put the batteries back in... wouldnt start. Put the meter on EVERYTHING. In my circuit there is a battery disconnect as well, when I measured it, 24v on the side from the battery, 13v on the other side. [b:e819536060]AH HA I got you[/b:e819536060], when I looked at it it appeared that the back was coming off so I gave it whack to re-seat it and it started right up. I jumped off and started watched it for a few minutes to checked everything is ok and nothing is smoking. Then had to move some sawdust around, figured it would charge the battery back up running it for a bit.
I got done and parked it, I saw a little smoke coming off the starter solenoid. HUH that's wierd. I look at my diagram and see that I forgot to connect the a wire from the starter to where I connected the Brown wires on the solenoid. The starter solenoid was freaking HOT, so hot it was melting the plastic and causing the little bit of smoke. I attempt to start it again. WHIIIIIIZZZZ, its spinning but not kicking out the bendix. So did I fry the solenoid by not putting that other wire on? I am going to order another solenoid and a new disconnect switch anyway but wanted to get your thoughts on that.
Lee B
Member
The original problem on these remains copper brush dust build up inside the live wiring inside the starter causing a slow drain on battery system. Solution is to clean the dust and oil from the brush area inside the starter when this problem shows up. Most solvents are flammable, I would disconnect all four battery terminals before attempting this.
No advice on how to wire the re-wire job since I can't keep up with any part of it. Factory way by diagram seems to me to be the best? That's as close as I'm getting to liability. If you used AC range instead of DC on your voltmeter by oversight for example, you could be looking at the wrong reading. Throw away what you thought you saw before, insist on believing what you've got now after double checking your meter settings. It's just too easy to make these kinds of mistakes. I've been using meters for 50 years and it still happens to me. Lost count of the dead meters I've killed too.
No advice on how to wire the re-wire job since I can't keep up with any part of it. Factory way by diagram seems to me to be the best? That's as close as I'm getting to liability. If you used AC range instead of DC on your voltmeter by oversight for example, you could be looking at the wrong reading. Throw away what you thought you saw before, insist on believing what you've got now after double checking your meter settings. It's just too easy to make these kinds of mistakes. I've been using meters for 50 years and it still happens to me. Lost count of the dead meters I've killed too.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
Why did you switch battery cables on the starter?
Cable(parts key 27) to top of solenoid should be attached to negative post on LH battery & cable(parts key 28) attached to side of starter should be attached to positive post (+) from RH battery as photo depicts.
As I previously stated you'll be money ahead to change elect system over to 12 volts using an Iskra or Denso starter
Jim, that is why I swapped them, they were reverse of what you have pictured. The Negative from LH battery was going to the post on the back of the starter and the positive was going to the top solenoid post. So I fixed that and moved the brown wires to the correct post. After running for a while the solenoid got so hot it basically melted the plastic on it. I forgot to put a wire from the point were the that connected Part #28 in your diagram to the rear left post of the solenoid and am wondering if that is what made the solenoid get so hot, or was it just ready to die?
I should probably add that before I did this Swap I was getting 24 volts to the light circuit when the switch was on. The wires to the lights have been disconnected since I got it. Someone told me the lights should be 12v so I wondered why this was occuring. NOW after this switch over I am getting 12v on those wires.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
Ok thanks foe explanation.
Got the new switch and starter solenoid. The solenoid worked great.... although the generator started smoking. To the point I shot it with a fire extinguisher after cutting power. I give up on the 24v system. I wanted to keep it original but forget it. I should have listened sooner. At least I am only out $40 for the solenoid. So which 12v conversion works the best? All I can find so far are 1 wire alternator. And I read that the gear reductions don't work great. Advise appreciated as always. Thank you
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
I recommend a Nippodenso or Iskra starter.
OK thank you I will look around. I would prefer to be able to get the parts locally rather than online so if anybody has the part numbers for the nippondenso starter and proper alternator that will work with the generator light and the solenoid it will be appreciated. Going to search the forums when I am back at my pc.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
You can get this kit or individual starter from your local JD or A&I dealer
Alright I have done some searching. I have found numerous kits but no individual part numbers yet. Still looking for those. But I thought I would post the kits I found to get feedback on which is the better kit. Like I mentioned I would like to use the existing Gen light if possible instead of having to add another gauge. Also I already have 2 12v batteries so I think I would like to use both.
Of course there is the one sold by yesterdaystractors at around $450 http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/John-Deere-3020_12-Volt-Conversion-Kit_TS8000.html
Then there is one at rare electrical I like the price $340 but it has a gauge, I also emailed them to ask them the brand on the major parts. http://www.rareelectrical.com/p-274...rter-kit-john-deere-tractor-3020-ty16172.aspx
I found this one on ebay, their same store has it for $725 vs $510 on ebay. Another forum I cant remember which said this was a decent kit and linked to the website of the ebay seller. http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-to-12-Vo...re-3010-302-/121389515431?hash=item1c436102a7
No real information on this one except $540 price tag. http://www.link_disallowed/acatalog...on---24-Volt-to-12-Volt---21246.html#SID=4807
Like I said any input back is appreciated. I am still looking for individual part numbers to see if I can get them from a local parts house as well.
Of course there is the one sold by yesterdaystractors at around $450 http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/John-Deere-3020_12-Volt-Conversion-Kit_TS8000.html
Then there is one at rare electrical I like the price $340 but it has a gauge, I also emailed them to ask them the brand on the major parts. http://www.rareelectrical.com/p-274...rter-kit-john-deere-tractor-3020-ty16172.aspx
I found this one on ebay, their same store has it for $725 vs $510 on ebay. Another forum I cant remember which said this was a decent kit and linked to the website of the ebay seller. http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-to-12-Vo...re-3010-302-/121389515431?hash=item1c436102a7
No real information on this one except $540 price tag. http://www.link_disallowed/acatalog...on---24-Volt-to-12-Volt---21246.html#SID=4807
Like I said any input back is appreciated. I am still looking for individual part numbers to see if I can get them from a local parts house as well.
Alright I have done some searching. I have found numerous kits but no individual part numbers yet. Still looking for those. But I thought I would post the kits I found to get feedback on which is the better kit. Like I mentioned I would like to use the existing Gen light if possible instead of having to add another gauge. Also I already have 2 12v batteries so I think I would like to use both.
Of course there is the one sold by yesterdaystractors at around $450 http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/John-Deere-3020_12-Volt-Conversion-Kit_TS8000.html
Then there is one at rare electrical I like the price $340 but it has a gauge, I also emailed them to ask them the brand on the major parts. http://www.rareelectrical.com/p-274...rter-kit-john-deere-tractor-3020-ty16172.aspx
I found this one on ebay, their same store has it for $725 vs $510 on ebay. Another forum I cant remember which said this was a decent kit and linked to the website of the ebay seller. http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-to-12-Vo...re-3010-302-/121389515431?hash=item1c436102a7
No real information on this one except $540 price tag. http://www.link_disallowed/acatalog...on---24-Volt-to-12-Volt---21246.html#SID=4807
Like I said any input back is appreciated. I am still looking for individual part numbers to see if I can get them from a local parts house as well.
Of course there is the one sold by yesterdaystractors at around $450 http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/John-Deere-3020_12-Volt-Conversion-Kit_TS8000.html
Then there is one at rare electrical I like the price $340 but it has a gauge, I also emailed them to ask them the brand on the major parts. http://www.rareelectrical.com/p-274...rter-kit-john-deere-tractor-3020-ty16172.aspx
I found this one on ebay, their same store has it for $725 vs $510 on ebay. Another forum I cant remember which said this was a decent kit and linked to the website of the ebay seller. http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-to-12-Vo...re-3010-302-/121389515431?hash=item1c436102a7
No real information on this one except $540 price tag. http://www.link_disallowed/acatalog...on---24-Volt-to-12-Volt---21246.html#SID=4807
Like I said any input back is appreciated. I am still looking for individual part numbers to see if I can get them from a local parts house as well.
(quoted from post at 03:34:35 10/30/15)
You can get this kit or individual starter from your local JD or A&I dealer
The one available here on Yesterdays Tractors lists the TS-8000 part number is that the same one available from deere/AI? If it is it is significantly cheaper.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
I think it is the same as A&I and definitely cheaper. Sometimes I forget(Oldtimers) that the owners of this forum is in the parts business.
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
Dang I'll sure be glad "if & when" we get the edit feature re-instated.
I called Yesterdays Tractors order line, the rep had to call their supplier to find out what the manufacturer is on the starter and I asked him to check if the nose cone was aluminum. They didnt have much information on the product at all at their finger tips. He was afraid that the supplier wouldn't tell them the manufacturer of the starter but after he called they said it was bosch and it had cast steel nose cone.
I managed to find the kit they are selling and look at it at the supplier. It is not the TS-8000 kit per-say, and the picture they have here does not match what it is rather it is an AKT0017 from another supplier which comes with the gauge. See these pictures.
Vs the actual part number of what they are selling below.
Then I called another company who is listing a kit for $340 after adding it to the cart it shows the same AKT0017 part number. SO I called them but they said they actually assemble the kit and do not purchase from the same supplier. So I asked him if he could find out what the manufacturer of the starter and alternator was and am waiting on an email from him.
If it is the same one I would go with the other company obviously but is the Bosch starter a good one? Not ruling out the one Jim listed just getting all the options.
I got a call back and they said the one that is $340 both the Alternator and Starter are made by arrowhead electrical products, I've never heard of them has anyone else?
I found another place that has the A-TS-8000 for $650 from A&I as well. But being other places have listed the part number with different parts I would call them first to verify that it is in fact a denso starter.
Thank you for that. I will order after my two projects on this one are done.
On a side note, what is the best and safest steps to disconnect the batteries on the 24v system for removal? I've done it a few times but my girlfriend is helping and keeping the cables off of any metal. If I was going to do this by myself what is the best method.
In my mind, please correct me if I am wrong.
1. disconnect negative battery cable from left side
2. disconnect positive from left side
3. Remove left battery
4. disconnect Negative from right side
5. disconnect positive from right side.
6. Remove right battery
[/list]
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
GunGeek
Your cable disconnect plan sounds good to me.
Thank you Jim.
I got the kit I ordered today, I ordered it based off of my conversations with the company. I would like to get your opinions on if I should return it. First its an off brand, I am on a budget but thought I would try it and if it lasts me the warranty period I would replace it later. In talking with the company I ordered it from they said it would be a steel nose cone and a direct drive unit. What I got was an Aluminum gear reduction starter. I understand gear reduction can be better but the aluminum nose and casing has me concerned. Should I send this thing back?
Tx Jim
Well-known Member
- Location
- Coyote Flats, Texas
Have performed any reviews on the 12 volt conversion kit that you purchased and got any negative reviews?
I sure wish we could edit. I may just be the test subject for this seller. They dont have a review function on their site but they sell in numerous other places like amazon and ebay. So depending on the consensus. I will contact them tell them that what they sent is not what we discussed, what I ordered or what is pictured.
I decided to use the parts that were sent to me but left a review regarding the difference in what was explained/advertised. I am working on an "Instructable" for the whole project and will post a link when I am done editing the videos.
The parts were all officially installed yesterday and I am keeping that date marked to see the time frame if there are any failures and will report back. I will follow up a little later today with that link.
Well here is the link to the Instructable, just finally got done getting the videos edited and published.
http://www.instructables.com/id/John-Deere-3020-24v-to-12v-conversion/
http://www.instructables.com/id/John-Deere-3020-24v-to-12v-conversion/
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