4630 QR HYD/PTO problems, getting worse

Hi all,

Purchased this 4630 last fall with 9000 hours on it to help with running the bale processer, discing, mowing and other grunt work. it's been a great tractor up until about a week ago when these problems started to crop up.

First, the PTO-

This tractor has been hooked up to the 18ft discbine for two weeks. it's cut down a pile of hay. about one week back I was running it and the pto lever popped out. no big deal, put it back in, and on the way back on the next windrow, it popped out again. this happened a few more times until I found a tarp strap and hooked it up. Been running it that way ever since. I haven't been experiencing any slippage or unusual activity other than that, so I figured I'd use it as is with the strap until haying was over. Figured it was just a broken spring in the housing on the side of the case?

Now, the HYD-

At about the same time I noticed the tractor had a harder time lifting the disc mower when at an idle. give it a little more rpm, and it lifts it ok.

when you try to lift it at idle when first started up in the morning, it'll lift it just fine. it's when it's fully warm it acts up. This problem seems to be getting a little worse.

Today it was over 90 degrees, and I mowed about 11 hours strait with it all day long. by the end of the day, I shut it down, got out to check on my knives, got back in and gave it a little throttle. immediately the 3 point picked itself up (it had fallen down when I lowered the engine rpms to idle). I backed out of the throttle again, and waited a few seconds, the 3 point started dropping again. Also, I have no HYD pressure to any of the functions on the implement at idle now when hot. I also have some jerkiness in the steering at idle, but have never lost power steering.

When I get out, I can hear the Hydraulics not sound normal. sound more like a clicking or a chattering that I hear from the back of the machine and nothing in the front.


My big question is, Can whatever is going on in the hydraulics be related to what's going on with the PTO? Does the transmission have a separate hyd pump for running the clutch, and pto clutch?

I'm thinking I have what may be a hydraulic pump failure, but I'm not completely certain at this point. When at operating speed, you'd never know anything was wrong with the tractor.


Any suggestions on where to start? Should I be concerned about continuing PTO use on this machine if the HYD pump supplies pressure to the PTO clutch? or would this be completely unrelated?

I understand how hydraulics work, just not familiar with how JD plumbed these old tractors

Pto & traction clutch operate from trans pump pressure. How long since hyd filter was changed? Which trans(QR or PS)?

Again I will get Tx Jim to post a pic of the clutch valve (it is a QR by the way Jim). I would guess that the lever that operates the detent piston for the PTO has bent or broken, a common enough issue. Also possible is a failed cab mount causing a change in the linkage geometry.
As far as the hydraulics, I would wonder about a high pressure leak in the hitch or SCV. After running for a while (1 hr or more),check for an SCV that is hotter than other components, either by hand or ideally an infrared thermometer. You can check the hitch valve the same way. A component that is hotter indicates internal leakage.

I will check the cab mount to see if anything's changed. this thing has been going over some very rough country the last couple of weeks, wouldn't surprise me if it knocked out a 40 year old rubber mount.

I have an infrared heat gun, so next time I go to cut I'll hit all the SCV's like you suggested and see what they're running for temps. As for the 3 point leakage, I know the 3 point falls every time the tractor is shut down, so I already know it does leak some, has since I got it. Not sure where the valving is for it, but I'm sure I can figure it out and hit it with the heat gun too.

Good news on the PTO if all I'm looking at is a cab mount or a bad detent/spring

Hi Jim,

That's good to hear that the pto/traction clutch are isolated away from the main HYD system. it's a quad range trans, and supposedly had the filters changed before I got it. I've got some new ones in the shop, and it was my plan if I have time in the morning to drop them and inspect for any shiny stuff.

Since this is my first quad range, I noticed there's only one filter on the drivers side unlike the 8sp powershift? is this trans or hyd? where's the other one?

Lever Tech 7 referred to as bending is parts key 5A or 5B

All the things that were suggested are good possibility for your problem, but if the filter/sump screen inspection doesn't help I would be looking at the clutch oil pressure and the possibility of the transmission pump failing, low trans oil pressure would give you these same issues..like not enough pressure to keep the PTO detend engaged and low charge oil at an idle when warm..letting the stand-by high pressure drop from lack of charge oil, the 3 pt dropping has it's own little problem and as long as it had plenty of oil going to it you didn't notice that..If you pull the trans pump drive shaft and look at the shaft 24" from the end you will probably see where the worn pump gear has been chewing at the shaft...

You better make time to change the trans filter before you run it any more and then fallow Tims advice he is on the right track

Thanks for the reply Tim- What you're describing sound almost exactly what I have going on. Ok, I'll pull the filters I can find and see if anything's there. I'm not too familiar with these transmissions, where is the sump screen, and what's involved in getting it out to clean? do I need to drop all the oil?

The trans oil pump shaft, is it accessible from outside the machine? what about the pump? or is this a split tear down type of job? I'm going to see if I can locate a pressure gauge to see what the pump pressure is.

You have one filter on the left rear side of the transmission, the sump screen is below and back a bit from the filter, you will need to drain the transmission to clean it, have 3 buckets ready, the trans drain plug is in the right rear of the trans case, not a handy place,,the trans clutch oil pressure should be at or near 165PSI, the trans pump is under the rockshaft, you can change it with out pulling the cab,,when you get to that point we will help you with it..

The tractor was trying to tell you there was a problem by dropping the pto due to low transmission oil pressure .
Continued operation with too low pressure and flow is going to make a small problem larger .
Iirc there is a transmission pump upgrade from Deere. More flow to compensate for old hardened seaping seals and worn parts.
Some of those 30 series had a weird external bypass oil circuit to "warm" the oil for winter operation. If the mod is there, it should be removed.

Yes the only trans pump available now is the larger up-grade one,, the smaller one was discontinued a few years ago,, and you now have to order the parts individual,,the kit was discontinued too,,Darn it and I have been removing those old by pass kits as they come through here..

(quoted from post at 09:14:26 07/11/15)
The tractor was trying to tell you there was a problem by dropping the pto due to low transmission oil pressure .
.

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b&d
You're assuming the trans pump is faulty which pressure & flow testing is required for good diagnostics. Remember the warning you given in the past about good frt hyd pumps being replaced for no good reason?

put a pressure gauge on it late today.

in the clutch port, 150 psi at idle- in the pto port, 25 psi in off position, 25psi in engaged position at idle. pressure increases with engine rpm until 110 psi at WOT is reached.

pulled the filter, didn't look good, pulled the screen, and looked worse. looks like easily a handful of brass/steel flakes in the screen. What's more wierd, is inside the screen, someone has taken two magnets, clamped them to a piece of wire, and stuck them inside the screen! didn't look like a factory deere part to me.

Looks like I might have been the guy that got hosed on a deal that maybe the prev. owner knew about and attempted to scab over. even so, I can't believe I've run it all winter with no trouble until now.

FYI, it took 4 buckets for the oil and I only had 3 ready Tim. lol now my skin is good and moisturized with hygaurd.

Here's some pictures if they load correctly. Question is, is this a transmission pump problem, hyd pump problem, something else? or both?

The oil looks like muddy water, not sure, it might be scorched, though it didn't smell burnt

I have not put the oil back in, and attempted a pressure check with the screen clean and a new filter.

What now? looks like I'm about to have to open my wallet. ;(

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<image src="http://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/photos/mvphoto24248.jpg"/>

Hi Sorry to read your first post and to see this mess, I think I'd be opening a book of matches after my wallet for a good paid up insurance plan L.O.L then go buy something else with the money!

Ask anybody here how good a JD tractor is they will praise most of them till the cows come home. A guy then comes on here and reads about the many guys that have your type problems with older higher hour ones.

I have had a few shop customers we had to tell "shoot the Deere" it was beyond repair due to huge costs and the rest was still worn out.
I don't care how good a reputation and resale value is they still pile up just the same as everything else with high ours thats worn out or had zero maintenance for a good few years.
I will not run Deeres here for exactly the same reason you have found, anything green I could afford would of bankrupt me in repairs and maybe cost twice as much to buy comparing hours/age to some other brands . Yes there are good ones but age hours is killing lots of the cheaper ones guys can afford to buy
Good luck and hope you can get out ok somehow
Regards Robert

dieselfume
The magnets in the screen were not factory installed. I think your tractor needs brake pads replaced as moisture causes brake pad deterioration. I recommend R&amp;R of rear axle housings &amp; brake components before attempting to operate tractor. If this tractor operated all Winter without problems then it shouldn't be a junk yard candidate.

Robert Major forgot to state that poor maintenance by previous owners makes bad tractors out of all colors of tractors and IMHO all tractor parts are very high $$$$$$$$

This tractor is not a junkyard candidate. Even if the transmission is bad, I'll fix it knowing how far it will take me. You can afford repairs when you don't have a new tractor payment. The old deeres are the best and you'll find there's a reason for their loyalty. take any tractor and put 9000-14,000 hours on them and they're going to have some failures. new ones will too. The main difference is, this tractor is MUCH cheaper to repair, and most repairs can be done myself without a scantool. as for any other brands, I'd rather be shot then have to ranch/farm with a white, red or blue tractor. I've used them, they suck.

Jim- I was wondering if the brass flakes were brake pads, you confirmed that for me. However, didn't those pressures sound a bit on the low side to you? I'm thinking I may clean the screen, throw the oil back in it and re-check pressures. This tractor came from near Iowa, so moisture sure could have been an issue.

(quoted from post at 07:09:31 07/12/15)

Jim- I was wondering if the brass flakes were brake pads, you confirmed that for me. However, didn't those pressures sound a bit on the low side to you? I'm thinking I may clean the screen, throw the oil back in it and re-check pressures. This tractor came from near Iowa, so moisture sure could have been an issue.

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Yes pressures for pto clutch &amp; brake circuits are low. Have you rechecked pressures after filter change &amp; screen cleaning? Check to be sure hyd filler cap breather is clean.

(quoted from post at 13:09:31 07/12/15) This tractor is not a junkyard candidate. Even if the transmission is bad, I'll fix it knowing how far it will take me. You can afford repairs when you don't have a new tractor payment. The old deeres are the best and you'll find there's a reason for their loyalty. take any tractor and put 9000-14,000 hours on them and they're going to have some failures. new ones will too. The main difference is, this tractor is MUCH cheaper to repair, and most repairs can be done myself without a scantool. as for any other brands, I'd rather be shot then have to ranch/farm with a white, red or blue tractor. I've used them, they suck.

Jim- I was wondering if the brass flakes were brake pads, you confirmed that for me. However, didn't those pressures sound a bit on the low side to you? I'm thinking I may clean the screen, throw the oil back in it and re-check pressures. This tractor came from near Iowa, so moisture sure could have been an issue.

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Hi what you have to remember is yes you don't have a finance plan on owning it but with Deere parts prices $20.000 might not go far, there will probably be a lot of worn out parts in there, you will probably find every O ring in the hyd system is getting to the age it wants replacing and those filings will be in most of the system. One of the deeres we shot was one owner, and well serviced it was at 17000 hrs and plain worn out. there was a couple parts in the pto it needed were $1000 each it got loose bearings glued back in the housings at the customers choice, then the next summer the hyd quit and the hi low fell apart. the guy decided enough as it was only worth $5000 running and went bought a new one, to save the same problem you have . I see guys fall into money pits all the time and I get to deal with their misery, it's your choice and you've been warned what it is probably going to be like. 30 series are cheap for a reason round here, a 40 series is a much better tractor.
I will add this to the last guy probably had problems with this tractor as those magnets weren't put in for fun, so how long has it been running like this before he dumped it. you ran it a few months before it plugged up with filings and you new you had a problem.

Yes the brakes are bad, the filings have hurt the trans pump, the low pressure at the PTO mean that the PTO operating piston seals have failed, and yes I would fix it, and yes I would take this problem on way quicker than the same on a 2950,,

Jim/Tim-

Cleaned the screen and installed with new filter. put the oil back in, checked pressures. Clutch is 150psi at idle, 165 at WOT. Spec according to my tech manual is 125-135 at idle, 135-145 at WOT.

PTO pressures are- idle 30 psi, 1500 rpm-105, 2000 rpm-115. spec says pto pressure should rise gradually until it hits 135-145psi at 2000 rpm.

So, my pto is out of spec. I know this is a long shot, but I did read a little something earlier about shimming the valves in the pto/clutch valve body for more pressure? Would it be possible that I have debris in the pto valve? I'm not trying to hide from the fact that the pto clutch seals could be damaged, but the pump sure looks like it's doing it's job on the transmission clutch side of things.?

Hydraulics are working better at first glance, but I'll know more later today. I'm going to change knives on the mower and go cut for 7 hours. we'll see how it works. at this point, if the pto's got problems, I'm really not going to make it any worse. I'm already going to be out a set of steels and frictions.

I'll report later today.

I have had several in here this summer with readings like you have, and the PTO piston seals were in pieces..the pump will have had a lot of those filings sucked through it, then the filter is next in line to catch what made it through the sump screen, since the screen is so course the fines go on through to the pump..the brakes should be checked "soon"...

Tim- What (if any) further troubleshooting measures can I take to verify the damage I've got here before I start into this trans?

If it's the pump and pto unit as you say, how deep into the case do I need to go? you mentioned the pump is in the front of the trans, how about the pto clutch unit? if this kind of damage is going on with the pto, what about the 2 speed? Guess what I'm asking is, what kind of job am I in for, and how much could it cost me in parts? if I have it done, how many hours labor can I expect?

Thanks a bunch.!

Mail me when you can.. I know what you need to do.. [email protected]

(quoted from post at 12:17:10 07/12/15) Yes the brakes are bad, the filings have hurt the trans pump, the low pressure at the PTO mean that the PTO operating piston seals have failed, and yes I would fix it, and yes I would take this problem on way quicker than the same on a 2950,,

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Tims

Please , a wee bit of mercy towards my beloved Mannheim and Dubuque tractors.

I can't find much Love for them Glen...the more I deal with them the less I like them....I am looking for a large picture of a 2950 so I can draw a big red circle with a line across it to hang on the shop wall ;^)

(quoted from post at 16:12:39 07/12/15)

Please , a wee bit of mercy towards my beloved Mannheim and Dubuque tractors.

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b&amp;d
Face the facts JD utility tractors that are your beloved models have terrible designed hyd's compared to their rowcrop brothers.

(quoted from post at 19:36:47 07/12/15)

(quoted from post at 16:12:39 07/12/15)

Please , a wee bit of mercy towards my beloved Mannheim and Dubuque tractors.

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b&amp;d
Face the facts JD utility tractors that are your beloved models have terrible designed hyd's compared to their rowcrop brothers.

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i would like to know how many Dubuque/Mannheim tractors that use the proper oil, that is not contaminated and has regular scheduled filter service . How many have problems compared to the tractors that are only serviced when they grind to a halt?
The 2020,2120,1640, 1840 &amp; 2355 here were used daily to feed live stock plus all other loader work. Nary a hint of hydraulic problems.

(quoted from post at 07:54:24

b&amp;d

i would like to know how many Dubuque/Mannheim tractors that use the proper oil, that is not contaminated and has regular scheduled filter service . How many have problems compared to the tractors that are only serviced when they grind to a halt?

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I suppose you'll have to conduct your own survey as anyone who has repaired Dubuque/Mannheim &amp; Waterloo built tractors will testify that Waterloo hyd system give less trouble &amp; are easier to diagnose when there are problems than the utility tractors of the same era.

Send the Mannhiems here...I can deal with them. As I have said before I would still rather run AND repair a JD utility tractor over their competition
Does this mean I just agreed with B&D ????

No,it means that you have been around Mannhiems too long,,my deepest sympathy for you;^)I can deal with them ,,I just don't like doing it,, Back in the 70's when I worked at the dealership, we sold a "bunch" of them to the small farmers in the area,,more of them than you can imagine were in the shop before their first Birthday,I have witnessed every kind of failure possible with them.over and over.,the Waterloo units stayed on the farm working way harder than their little brothers.. As I have said when they are good they are great, when they go bad they are "very bad"...