51 B fluid change

I"ve got a late styled B and when doing the fluid changes I noticed there is a small plug right behind the larger fill for the engine oil that also has a small drain plug at the bottom. I don"t see that there is a fill check plug either so what should be in there and how much? Engine oil or gear lube?

Thanks!

your talking about a fll plug for the first reduction gear. directly under it should be a drain plug. drain that and don't be surprised if nothing but water comes out. i'd try to blow air down the fill plug (the small plug your refering to) to get any left over water out. refill the well in the first reduction gear cover with a little more than a pint of engine oil. your lucky to have these plugs. thats all the oil that the frg, the pulley assy and the forks that slide the drive in and out. you really need to pull the pulley assy off and the drive and repack (probably replace) the bearing on the crank that the pulley assy rides on. also check the bushing in the rear of the pulley assy for excessive wear. any doubts replace. be sure to put the bushing back in to the depth specified in the shop manual. you'll need a specail pulley to pull the pulley assy off the end of the crank and probably just a little bit of heat too. the pulley looks like an letter "H" where you put a bolt in against the cap screw and then a nut on the bolt that will let you push the puller off. the other two legs of the "H" are slotrted and you put a bolt through each leg to screw into the drive and don't be afraid to apply just a little heat. mine popped off with in 4 or 5 seconds of applying heat. read over you shop manula before you start this. its not as bad as it sounds. while in there be sure the dogs and bolts are all loose. they probably want be and will probably be very dry. there is a lot of argumment about the seal that the parts book calls out that goes in the pulley assy. most say it doesn't get one but the oldest mechanic i know says it does. it is not available from deere. you can buy one from fleet pride, just ttake the measurements you need. the seal needs to be real thin so it want take up to much space in the hole it goes in. em me and i'll give you my phone number if you want to talk.

That's a pre-fill plug for the first reduction gear. Any excess oil will spill over a dam inside the cover and return to the crankcase, so put maybe a quart of your crankcase motor oil in there and the rest until it runs out of the crankcase check plug. The factory added those pre-fill and drain plugs to the "B" beginning in April of 1951.

There was no "seal" on the dust cover, just a tin lip. Besides that, where you installed that seal on yours, inside the pulley bearing bore, would not have been where the dust cover oil seal would ride.

fit is correct. & just fyi, with the clutch pulley off you can fill the reduction case with oil & watch how much it takes. 1 full quart will fit with room to spare. this fills to overflowing when running but water etc only gets out if drained out the bottom. it fills slowly thats why they added the prefill hole.

What seal? i had my late B apart a while back and there was no seal,and there still isn't a seal and it is fine.

i hate to get into this again. fit and i have been talking about this on johnny popper forum for months now. the jd parts book calls out for a seal that goes into the cavity that the washer, bearing and dust seal goes in in the pulley assy. now apparently ever jd that fit and others have taken apart has not had this seal in there. just hear me out. the seal was suppose to have kept the oil from the oil that gets on the crank from getting past the end of the crank and that would keep it from eventually getting onto the clutch disk. i don't know if jd orginally did this or if its just a misprint in the jd parts book. the seal isn't avaiable from jd. now, i don't know how long the seal hasn't been avaiable so my contention is that rather than find the seal to put in there who ever worked on the pulley assy just left them out and put them back up and hoped for the best. the two jd mechanics that i know who have worked on these things for 50+ years said that there is suppose to be a seal there. i just don't know any more and am just stating that you would think that after all these years jd would have possibly came out with a service bullentin saying don't use a seal here. i don't know how to reaserach that. my other comment is that the parts book also called out a seal that went in the dust cover. fit says there isn't one there either. so there is two seals in the clutch area that jd parts books call out that aren't there according to him. i can't argue the point one way or another because of my lack of experience in dealing with this. all i say is that it seems to me that jd made two mistakes on this one thing. seems highly unlikely to me. for those of you who want to put a seal in the cavity with the bearing, washer and dust cover (the same one in where the bearing goes that is on the end of the pulley assy) you'll have to take the measurements from you cavity and the dia of your crank and order one. i got mine from fleet pride. now you have to be careful and get a real thin seal because a thick one want go in there because of the lack of space. in some discussions there has been some statments about oil slinging out of the space between the dust shield and the innner edge of the pulley assy (the part a belt slides over). my contention is that its oil that is coming out around past the bearing and dust seal on the end of the pulley assy. i don't know where else it can come from. fit contention is that it would have to travel a long ways to get there and he maybe right. i'll just say what i feel and its your tractor to do what you want to with. i know fit is pitching a fit agin (sorry fit, couldn't pass that one up). i'm not trying to say i'm righ and he's wrong or vise versa, my contention is that it just doesn't seem right for jd to have made that many mistakes on just one page in the parts book. if there is that many mistakes on just this one page in the parts book how can you trust any other pages or part numbers any where in the parts book. i look at this as a friendly discussion and hope others will do the same. i see nobody being right or wrong, but it a choice that you alone can make when working in this area. the outer dust shield isn't avaiable from deere any more in case your needing one. it would be interesting if somebody could come up with a nos one to see if it did indeed come with or without a seal. again, i'm not trying to stir up a heated dibate again, but just stating what i feel. your time fit.

here we go again.....

NO!!!!!!!!!!!! IT DOES NOT SAY THAT A SEAL GOES INTO THAT CAVITY!!!!!

The parts book says "Dust cover with oil seal". The dust cover is that thin tin plate that covers the rear of the pulley, and keeps first reduction gear flying oil from getting onto the operating sleeve, and pulley dust from getting into the crankcase oil. The operating sleeve is even supplied with integral grooves to screw any excess oil back into the first reduction gear cover so oil does not drip out of the pulley or pollute the linings.

John is hung up on the statement "with oil seal", which in my experience of repairing more than just one "B" model clutch, means that extra little tin lip that is attached to the inner edge of the dust cover. It is not a rawhide or neoprene seal, or otherwise replaceable seal. One replier told John that he had bought probably the last NOS "B" dust cover and that it was exactly how I described, and John said "Well, how do you kow that someone didn't open the package and take the seal out". You cannot confuse him with the facts.

The reason Deere said "with oil seal" is that if the dust cover was allowed to rub the operating sleeve, you could wear that lip out, and people wanted to be able to buy it separately, but since it was fabricated as a unit, they said "with oil seal" so that you knew that you had to buy the dust cover.

15 people posted on the other site agreed with me and tried to get John to understand that. Now the only person who says he is correct is a mysterious "old John Deere Mechanic", who by now, if he even exists, has to be over 80 years old, and I seriously doubt that he can remember his phone number from 1972 let alone the details of a "B" model clutch. I'll also bet that since 1965, I've had more of those clutches apart than the mystery mechanic. Time after time on this and other boards when a person cannot understand or wants just his inexperienced word to be taken for gospel, they drag out that old chestnut and say they they got it from an "old John Deere Mechanic" and that is somehow supposed to set us back in awe. I think that after all of these years that I'M AN OLD JOHN DEERE MECHANIC!" So John, get your old John Deere mechanic onto the internet and have him post his background and reasoning about the dust cover and oil seal placement, and then I'll ask him a few detailed questions, then he will stop and stutter, and then he'll turn to you and say, "Well, now I'm none too sure that I do recollect it that-a way". Been there, done that. Talk to me after you have had more than one "B" clutch apart. I've given you this very same explanation for what seems like a year now, and you never offer anything other than speculation and insults. Get some facts and post 'em up. Take your clutch apart one more time and take some pictures and post them. But you won't. You'll just argue.

For anyone else looking to get advice here:

BE WARNED!!!! Anyone can post their opinion on this and other boards, even me, and if you choose to follow them off the road and into the ditch, it was your choice. To paraphrase the Latin "Caveat Emptor", let the buyer beware, in this case, let the reader beware, because someone who is new to these old machines could end up with some very expensive tuition by not considering if the person who gives you a reply has even worked on your type of machine and problem before. John has a bad habit of posting an opinion on things even when he has never seen such a device. In the same breath when he told me that he had "never been this far into a "B" clutch before", he told me that my 45+ years knowledge gained in repairing them was wrong. Don't say that I didn't warn you all. Be careful! Guys like this will probably soon cause someone to break something mighty expensive if you follow their advice. For crying out loud, the original poster just wanted to know how to use the first reduction gear cover drain and fill plugs and John has him tearing the clutch apart!

There is no separate oil seal in the dust cover. It is just a tin lip oil "avoider", which closes the clearance between the operating sleeve and the cover.

FIT is quite correct. Sometimes when one reads text and allready has a line of thought going , the meaning sometimes follows the thought. A person who has never owned a tractor could read the same text and probably get a more accurate meaning. Some still won't believe that there was .060 clearance between the "B" clutch fork actuating shaft and it's bore. (pretty sloppy) We have proven it and there is a reason for it , but some can't bring themselves to believe that JD would leave something that loose.

lets get this straight. i was not talking about the seal in the dust cover that is what 8 inches across. you've convienced me that there probably was never one there. my refereence to a dust shield in the pulley assy is the cone shaped sheet metal cover that is 2 1/2 inches across. that is followed by the bearing, washer and like i said if the poster wants to he can put a seal in there or not. its his choice. in this go around i've only stated that the part books call out for a seal in the cavity of the pulley assy. he can leave it out or put one in. i've never questioned where your right or wrong about this seal. my only point has always been that it is called out in the parts book for a seal to be inside the pulley assy. the reason that i see them callling one out iss to keep oil from running fown the pulley assy and out past the bearing on the end of the crank and then getting on the clutch disk. if the reader doesn't want one in there then let him leave it out. all i've said is that the partss book calls it out. after all these years you would think that if the seal isn't suppose to be in there jd would have made some attempt to say don't put a seal in there. i just find it odd that they went to a lot of trouble to show the seal and call it out and give it a part number if its not suppose to be in there. i haven't told the readers to put one in there unless they wanted to and only pointed out what the parts book says. you keep attracking me for going by the book, when there has been a dozen times we've agreed that telling every body to get all the manuls for their tractors and use them to go by. now all of a sudden you say don't go by the parts book. i'm through dealing with you over this because you don't see my point and just enjoy be littling me and i don't apprecaite that. when a poster puts something out here he is asking for help. i give him the best advice i can and so does evey body else. how he choices to deal with that info is striclkley up to him. i don't know that i've ever lead anybody a stray and made them break a part over something i've just given my best shot at. you can't keep the two seals seperated in your comments. you think i'm talking about the seal that is called out in the parts book for the bust cover and the seal i'm talking about here is the one that goes in the cavity behind the bearing in the pulley assy. sorry its come to this. you have your opinion about all this and i have mine. you give your advice, i'll give mine and let the reader make up his own mind about what he wants to do. putting the seal in the cavity of the pulley assy can't hurt anything, if its not to thick.

Where does it say that the parts book calls out for a seal in the pulley bearing bore? I'll wait for that answer.

Here's how it is going to go down. You, or someone else, is going to take your guidance and put a seal down in that bore. Now after some time, and some heat, about the time that you or someone else is backing that tractor down off of the ramps of their trailer at a show, that neoprene lip is going to shed and feather into the pulley bearing and seize it. Then, as you nurse the tractor down the ramp, the clutch will catch, and not being able to release it, back over one or more spectators, and possibily a kid. Everyone here will put you on their prayer list and say what a shame that such an accidnet occurred, and I'm here to tell you that your modification of a 60 year old clutch design is going to the culprit, and you may well lose everything you have, including your highly modified "B" in the negligence case.

Customizing clutches is not a thing to do lightly, especially when you operate your tractor around at shows. Once you have ever operated more than just one of these two cylinders, you will realize that there are already too many reasons for a clutch to lock up in the engaged position so that you need not add one more reason. There is no mention of a seal to be installed in that bore. You are making this up. Period!

The parts catalog clearly states that item 15 is a bearing retainer, 16 is the roller bearing, 17 is a bearing washer, and 18 is a oil retainer NOT AN OIL SEAL. An oil retainer is just a shield. An oil seal is a rawhide or neoprene unit that actually seals against the shaft and an outer bore. Own more than one "B" and you'll see this. You are dangerous!