What if your baler isn't putting a knot in #1 or #2 Twi

Well... mine (NH276) was doing this here and there. More often when bale tension was high, or if hay got a little wet or at changeovers of twine balls. When it did happen, it happened on the knot on the "heavy side" of the baler. (Left side)

I figured that it was time to install new twine discs. Went and bought a new twine disc, cleaner and twine holder from the dealer. 150 bucks. This is for the newer version... three discs... two cleaners and a twine holder with two fingers. (old versions had 2, 1 and 1) They are interchangeable...but newer version holds better.

The above assumption was correct...but there is still and lingering problem and a couple of lessons learned.

Lingering problem... I'm now getting about one broken bale out of 50-ish on the same side (better than before!), but what I'm getting is a perfect knot on one end (also better than before!)... nothing on the other... also had the twine wrap on top of the billhook

So... lessons learned (and chime in if you have either critique or validation)

To get at the twine discs on my baler...

I had to remove the wiper arm...

I had to remove the twine disc worm gear, the twine disc worm drive pinion gear...and the shaft for twine disc worm drive. This allows access to the rivet holding the twine holder.

I also had to remove the billhook and the billhook pinion gear. This allows space for the twine discs to come out.

Lastly, I had to remove the twine disc pinion gear and the rivet holding the twine fingers.

Lesson 1:
When you remove this many parts from an old set of knotters... you should be ready to replace with new or good scrap! Or... do the procedure with a couple of days before baling, so if you find a cruddy part... you can replace, since you essentially have the whole knotter frame de-populated.

Commentary on Lesson 1...

I didn't have time to spare. I had hay on the ground, by the time I got to this.

Luckily, I had a spare set of knotters from a 269 that I just scrapped. I removed all of the same parts from these knotters... and compared. Bill hoook was better. (no flats on ball, better bill) Bill hook pinion gear was better (flat wasn't worn). I wished that I had a better twine disc worm drive pinion gear... or new, because there was a little wear on the one I removed. I had to re-install the old part. It wasn't terrible... but I wish I had new.

My friend "Old" will be happy to know that, since I had the wiper arm out... I did sharpen the blade, even though it seemed plenty sharp... why not.

Lesson 2...
New parts...new settings. I set the twine disc tension spring (the cantilever thingy) to the spacing in the manual, since discs, cleaner and holder were new. I set the bill hook cam spring about where the other side of the knotter was set. It's a different, better, but used billhook. Factory settings may or may not work.

Commentary on Lesson 2.
Twine disc tension was good. I'm now always getting one knot on the twine, as opposed to none. Billhook cam spring needed a little tightening, as first four bales I ran through had loosely formed knots.

Lesson 3...
Even with new parts... start baling at a light chamber tension and adjust up.

Commentary on Lesson 3:
I got cocky. I wanted to prove that I could make tight bales again, so I started in on a field of second cut (good and dry) with about middle of the road tension... Well... that fine hay packed like a mofo in the chamber and my first four bales went splat. I noticed loose knots... adjusted billhook cam spring as above... also noticed the chamber was like packed green concrete and loosened up my tension. Started making good bales.

Lesson 4... Knotter problems are onions, like Shrek... they got layers. Based on my residual issue... now I always get a knot on the #1 end... the knots I do get are perfect... tight, nice even cleanly cut tails of good length... but an occasional miss on the #2... and I had one example of the twine wrapping on top of the billhook. So... it looks like my twine disc issue was hiding a tucker finger issue.

Commentary on Lesson 4...
I did adjust my tucker fingers at the beginning of the season, but are they running exactly 1/32" from the needles, as specified???? Not hardly. My eye isn't that good.

I'm hoping that a re-adjust on my tucker finger will get me back to high reliability knots.


I'm also hoping that the lessons learned here will serve me well when I replace the twine discs on the other (right side) knotter frame, because I have that twine disc tension spring just about at full squeeze right now.

No takers, huh?

I get it. I want to really know how things tick.

Ignorance is bliss. But also... Bliss is ignorance.

Baled again yesterday. Checked my tucker finger spacing first, and yup... the side having problems was out of adjustment. I tightened it up to the needles before I started. And took to the field, confident that I was ready to make load after load of bales with good knots.

I was proven wrong about five bales in, oddly when the twine changed over to a new ball of twine.

So many variables. I essentially went through a load of "mystery baling" looking at twine tails from broken bales that were guiding me towards symptoms... billhook cam spring a little tight... twine finger tension a little loose... resting position of the tucker finger a little off, tension out of the twine box a little tight.

Throw in the fact that we bale unseeded ground that grows what comes naturally... the same windrow might start as grass, transition to clover... back to grass...

Also throw in the fact that I noticed the twine from the initial parts of the new ball was almost as thick as my pinky. (we have been running 7200 sisal)

Based on symptoms, after that first load of hay... and re-baling about twenty broken bales that I had to dig out of the wagon and throw on the ground... I got everything tuned to turn out about a hundred and fifty bales between broken bales.. and that happened at the next twine changeover (on the other ball in the box). My splice knot hung in the billhook... and it was tight and trimmed...

So this is where I'm going next...

I have been avoiding 9000 foot sisal, for fear of "thin spots", which can cause issues. But, it seems that, after running 7200 sisal for almost an entire summer... the issues from "thick spots" in 7200 can be just as bad, if not worse.

About mid-way through the summer, I did run a bale (two balls) of plastic twine left over from last year through with very few issues. Plastic, for my baler and thrower, has the issue where my thrower "eats" a hole in the twine as it throws the bale... even if I'm socking the hay through quickly.

Plastic also leaves a ton of little plastic knot tails in the field...which don't rot and build up over time. As evidenced by a hay field that I tilled up after baling with plastic for about six years. I could see little orange tails all over, in the tilled dirt.

So... I'm going to try some 9000 foot sisal, since it seems that my knotters do better with thin twine, over thick. And the potential issues from thin spots might be less than the issues from thick spots.

Wasnt anything to bite on, but certainly interesting reading. You did a lot of work there thanks for sharing.

Dont ever see any plastic twine on small squares at the hay auctions here, dont think anyone likes it. Different on round bales.

Always used 9000 on my 270 baler. Sometimes get a poor set of twine, but most of the time the fleet and farm type store stuff is good. I just had a thin spot mess up 5
bales in a row last baling so it does happen.

Paul

(quoted from post at 09:12:15 10/07/22) Wasnt anything to bite on, but certainly interesting reading. You did a lot of work there thanks for sharing.

Dont ever see any plastic twine on small squares at the hay auctions here, dont think anyone likes it. Different on round bales.

Always used 9000 on my 270 baler. Sometimes get a poor set of twine, but most of the time the fleet and farm type store stuff is good. I just had a thin spot mess up 5
bales in a row last baling so it does happen.

Paul

Click to expand...

Thanks for reading.

I learn a lot here... and I'm still, in the back of my mind... wondering if I have some oddball thing going on that I've seen here... like

The keyway on the tucker finger cam being broken.

Or maybe the cam discs are just old and worn, and either the wiper arm, or billhook, or twine discs just don't work through their full sweep or rotation, as they should anymore.

All I can say is, I read the manual... I read troubleshooting guides online. I try to adjust based on symptoms... but... there are a LOT of variables, especially when you are dealing with old equipment on meadows with varying types of vegetation, some springs, spots of standing water, etc.

Throw in the variable of twine thickness...

If you don't have a ton of money to just throw at a new piece of equipment that "just works"... so you can be blissfully ignorant. Then, my coping mechanism is to just tell others about what I see, so they can commiserate, critique or just plain read and think for themselves.

I don't see our farm ever getting big enough to justify a new baler... so... I have to enjoy the challenge and laugh a little. Because, if you're not laughing, you're crying.

I guess, I'm also thinking about our daughter. I talk to her all the time about issues with the baler, even though she would rather I run it... but she helps me work on it.

When the time comes... I would rather hand her an old, quirky, paid for baler, and maybe a spare one...and the knowledge of how they work... as opposed to a new one that just works... until it doesn't.

At that point, she can choose to buy a new one, or switch to round bales, or go vegan... and if she does, at least she will know what the deal is.

Have you gone through the troubleshooting steps spelled out in the manual?

I had a NH baler this summer that missed a
bale once or twice a load on the left
side. It turned out that left end of the
rocker shaft that operates the twine
fingers was worn quite badly where it runs
through the relatively thin metal that it
pivots in. We welded the groove up and
ground it back into shape and the problem
is gone.

I have an old F Vermeer round baler for the junk hay, the NH 270 for better hay.

Went to look at a better round baler last week, called the dealer, 140 mile drive, looked at it - the 2 main drive chains
were slack, one had the tensioner idler bracket bent way out of shape the other was just very loose and the adjuster
was nearly maxed out. Had to wonder what was wrong in the gearbox or shaft bearings to look like that. Drove back
home, not going to spend $10k plus for something that bad a shape, I got that bad at home already. Didnt even visit
with the dealer, not worth it for those issues and asking price.

Paul

(quoted from post at 12:24:34 10/07/22) Have you gone through the troubleshooting steps spelled out in the manual?

Click to expand...

Yes.

I believe in reading the manual. I believe in watching the youtube videos of knotter operation.

I also know that, with 30, 40, 50 year old equipment; the manual can only help so much; unless you can identify all of the obscure and sometimes buried parts of the system that are broken or out of spec, or just replace every part in question with new to get back to factory specs.

There IS a technical drawing in my knotter manual with micrometer specifications of every cam and functional dimension of the entire knotter stack. I do have to admit that I haven't pulled out a micrometer and verified every measurement.

I also have looked at various pieces of twine from broken bales and good bales. With the 7200 foot sisal that I'm using, I'm noticing at least a 2/1 difference in diameter from thin spots to thick.

I'm going to at least experiment with 9000 foot sisal (even though I know the variability will be the same); to see if my knotters are more tolerant of the thinner variations vs thicker. Especially since they seem to tie plastic, which is thin, fairly well.

I'm going to look at the end of the our twine finger "rocker" shaft, as you say. There is a ton of play elsewhere in my twine fingers as well... in the "home" position, they wiggle around a lot. I never thought to look for a groove where you're saying... I'll check!

Your answer also got me thinking about plunger timing. I replaced the entire set of chains and sprockets from the big sprocket on the side of the plunger... that big drive chain... and the stub shaft into the feeder (tine bar) drive gear box, back in June. The big drive chain the side, at the time was between being loose with the links it has... and being too tight with a link or half link removed. The chain has too much play. I told myself back then that I was going to run it for a while and see if I could get the link out of it.

A little variability in plunger timing, caused by that chain being loose would affect how well the plunger gets hay out of the way for the twine riding up on the needles... I should check that.

My hay dogs are all fine. Good springs and such. I already looked at that.

My experience with a JD or NH baler when there is a knot in the twine over but not in the twine coming up through from underneath is "it's the tucker fingers." I was first told this by the independent road service guy 30 years ago. With an IH or MF with no tucker fingers it is the hay dogs. When all else fails or one every 5,000 bales it is time to just go through all of the adjustments in the book in order simply because things wear.

(quoted from post at 05:26:04 10/09/22)

My experience with a JD or NH baler when there is a knot in the twine over but not in the twine coming up through from underneath is "it's the tucker fingers." I was first told this by the independent road service guy 30 years ago. With an IH or MF with no tucker fingers it is the hay dogs. When all else fails or one every 5,000 bales it is time to just go through all of the adjustments in the book in order simply because things wear.

Click to expand...

Preventative maintenance... I'm getting there.

I tried small plastic on our old MF 12. Baler. Missed one bale every 10 to 15. Checked everything and measured. Baler was way out of time. Put new chains on. Timed everything. Still wouldn't tie perfectly. With small plastic. Put in quality sisal 7200. Had string tension just about 1 turn to loose. Short tails on strong. It will bale 300 and not miss. Now I think probably plastic just needed more tension.

(quoted from post at 11:47:26 10/10/22) I tried small plastic on our old MF 12. Baler. Missed one bale every 10 to 15. Checked everything and measured. Baler was way out of time. Put new chains on. Timed everything. Still wouldn't tie perfectly. With small plastic. Put in quality sisal 7200. Had string tension just about 1 turn to loose. Short tails on strong. It will bale 300 and not miss. Now I think probably plastic just needed more tension.

Click to expand...

I've had this issue with plastic twine and old balers. Our old 269 had grooves worn on the plates that set twine tension out of the twine box. The tension was so low that the needles were practically throwing a lariat at the twine discs. Caused some mystery issues, until I rode on the baler and watched live.... it was easy to see that way. Tightened up the tension out of the twine box, and mystery issues went away.

Funny thing is... the 276 that I'm running now has the needles, needle yoke, billhook, twine fingers and twine tucker finger activator bar... all from that 269. So it baffles me a little bit that I ended up with issues that could be attributed to twine tucker fingers... that whole system worked pretty well in the 269.