Opinions on New Idea Cutditioner

Hello-

Wanted to ask the group what the overall consensus is on the old New Idea Cutditioners, 7 & 9 ft. models, 272 and 279 I believe? I cut about 40 acres of hay twice per year. At times my haybines have trouble with plugging at the sickles and guards due to the grassy hay I cut.

I cut very fine grass hay, with maybe some timothy and brome mixed in, no alfalfa or clover. If I had to describe the hay, it is similar to straight grasses like a lawn if it were to get overgrown. The horse customers I sell to love this type of hay, so I plan to keep harvesting it. 1st cutting is a bit stemmy, 2nd cutting is very soft and fluffy grass. When I put fertilizer on the fields, this grass grows like crazy. The downside is that the haybine will plug often, even if the gaurds and sickles are in top shape, then I need to hire someone to cut it for me. If I try to cut it, this makes for a very frustrating and time consuming cutting after applying fertilizer or during a wet summer, and sometimes during 1st cutting.

From time to time I see these machines come up for sale. Looking for some input on if this machine would be worth trying out? If I end up finding one, I will be powering a cutditioner with a Farmall 450 or my Farmall Super M-TA. Personally I think the Super M-TA has more power than the 450, it might be hopped up a bit.

1. I imagine the replaceable blades are very pricey now, so I would want to look for a machine with half way decent blades. Other than the blades, are these machines simple to work on?

2. I would not be replacing my haybines, just using a cutditioner as backup when I am having trouble with plugging.

3. 50-60 hp tractor run a cutditioner in the grass hay I descibed above?

4. I would like to find a small discbine, but do not have 5,000-8,000 right now laying around, plus I don't think my tractors would be big enough to run one, maybe right on the edge for HP. Then there is the open cab issue with stones being thrown from what I hear.

5. What are typical asking prices for these cutditioners?


Thanks for any advice in advance! Looking forward to the opinions (good and bad) from those who have run a cutditioner before. Thanks

-Jesse
 
I had one. The 272 would be the size you want for your tractors, and in heavy grass, you will still be going slow. A Cutditioner will make soft hay out of
stemmy first cutting. Keeping the knives sharp is a pain. When they dull, they tear at the grass and can pull up some by the roots so you will get dirt in
the hay. If you find a late model one, it may have the bolt in blade tips instead of the one-piece blades, which makes it easier to maintain.
 
I really don't think you'd be any further ahead. I'd be looking for a used disc mower, and maybe a tedder.
 
I ran NI cutditioner for my neighbours back in the 70s,
while I was a kid going to high school. Those things
were all the latest rage at that time. Farmers soon
traded them of on a haybinde. They take a lot of power
to operate. The knives are a proper pain in the
backside to replace if one breaks, and the best way to
sharpen the fail knives is by taking them off, sharpen,
and put back on. No small job ! And not a one person
job either.

Go buy a disc mower. They dont require nearly as
much power to drive, and will cut through any hay
crop. Also changing the knives is quick, cheap and
easy !
 
(quoted from post at 12:20:54 10/05/22) I ran NI cutditioner for my neighbours back in the 70s,
while I was a kid going to high school. Those things
were all the latest rage at that time. Farmers soon
traded them of on a haybinde. They take a lot of power
to operate. The knives are a proper pain in the
backside to replace if one breaks, and the best way to
sharpen the fail knives is by taking them off, sharpen,
and put back on. No small job ! And not a one person
job either.

Go buy a disc mower. They dont require nearly as
much power to drive, and will cut through any hay
crop. Also changing the knives is quick, cheap and
easy !


Good suggestions on the discbine! But, can my Farmall 450 or Super M-TA have enough HP to run a discbine? Also, any concern over stones getting launched at an open cab tractor, as I will not have any protection? I assume the cutditioner can throw stones too?

If I have to invest in a bigger tractor plus a discbine, my costs just went way up. Not looking to invest that much yet. Looking for something to get me through a problem field, not to replace the old haybine exclusively. Thanks for the comments so far!

-Jesse
 
I had a John Deere mower conditioner launch a rock at me with the reel when I was younger. If you want protection for an open tractor, you can make a rock
barrier out of angle iron and expanded steel mesh to put on the back and right side of the operator platform.
 
Naturally discbine will require a bit more power than a
disc mower. I have been cutting all my hay the past 3
years with a disc mower, which has no condition rolls.

My disc mower cuts 10

cvphoto137398.jpg


, leaves the hay flat out behind the mower, and dries
very well. I bought this machine new for $14,000.00 .
Hooks to the 3point hitch, but there are after market
companies that build a mower cart, and you can mount
the disc mower to the cart, and any draw bar tractors
with hydraulic and pto can run it. If you dont have a
cab tractor, you can fabricate a simple screen made
from angle iron and expanded metal. Yes stones will fly
up and hit the operator with a disc cutter, a NI
cutditioner will do the same, and a manure spreader
can be a missile launcher too
 
My 9-10 foot disc mower 3pt needs 60hp to run well, and at least that size tractor to be weighted well.

You can get 2 smaller sizes disc mower, which use less power and size.The smallest size I think you might spend a
lot of time in a field tho?

There is also a drum mower, fella used to sell/ promote them pretty heavily on here, they are perhaps a simpler
lighter but similar to a disc mower.

None of the above conditions the hay.

I think 3ph mower conditioners are popular in Europe? Not sure any make it to the USA?

The trailer disc conditioners on the market would need some real hp and are in a different price range than you are
looking maybe?

Paul
 
Jesse, you didn't say what type of guards are on your haybines but that could be your trouble. Neighbor had a haybine nearly identical to ours except for guards and of course holddowns. We were mowing in the same field one day and he was plugging every 20 feet or so and I just kept mowing along (about 4-5 mph). He finally gave up and let me mow the rest of the field myself. His mower had rock guards while we run stub guards on all our haybines. If you're running those full/long guards I would try putting stub guards on would be cheaper than another mower. I also mow mostly fine grass hay with a little timothy or orchard grass in it. Paul
 
I keep hearing about how great these disc mowers are right up until you guys hit something like a woodchuck dirt pile and then the costs add up fast for all the replacement parts. I'll stay with my old sickle mower and keep going when I get a Chuck hole dirt pile. As for a stone. I've never had a mower pitch a stone up to the tractor yet in all my 40or 50 years of mowing hay. We had an old 290 NI cutditioner and the knife speed was only about 8or900 stokes per minute or something like that. The 1219 Deere is around 1600 so it sped things up s bit and mowed cleaner. We raised alfalfa for hay and still do. I have had some of that fine grass and it will cut it but the knife needs to be in top condition for it to work decent in it. We used to run the old NI with an MD some times. Never tried it on the 1219. With the 1219 we have the bolt on sections so no fooling with rivets. We seldom pull the knife just unbolt and change right in the machine. Like on a combine head is. Not trying to make a great machine out of the 1219 it has it's faults too but been the better of the 2 for us and is still in use after close to 40 years now. The down side the roll drive can be a problem with leaking though we have not had a problem with ours since the dealer had to reseal it when it was new.
 
(quoted from post at 09:18:59 10/05/22) Hello-




From time to time I see these machines come up for sale. Looking for some input on if this machine would be worth trying out? If I end up finding one, I will be powering a cutditioner with a Farmall 450 or my Farmall Super M-TA. Personally I think the Super M-TA has more power than the 450, it might be hopped up a bit.


-Jesse

The Cutditioner takes a MASSIVE amount of horsepower vs a sickle conditioner. I've seen guys running a Haybine with an Allis Chalmers WD45. A Cutditioner will take double the power or more that one of those makes. Dad had a 270 (non replaceable cutters) that'd make an 830 Case at 70+ horse grunt. It did a terrible job cutting (ripping really) even with new blades. Got parked after a couple of years and a disc mower took it's place.
AaronSEIA
 
(quoted from post at 20:51:25 10/05/22) Jesse, you didn't say what type of guards are on your haybines but that could be your trouble. Neighbor had a haybine nearly identical to ours except for guards and of course holddowns. We were mowing in the same field one day and he was plugging every 20 feet or so and I just kept mowing along (about 4-5 mph). He finally gave up and let me mow the rest of the field myself. His mower had rock guards while we run stub guards on all our haybines. If you're running those full/long guards I would try putting stub guards on would be cheaper than another mower. I also mow mostly fine grass hay with a little timothy or orchard grass in it. Paul


To answer the question on what type of guards I am using, they are the normal long tip rock guards on both machines I own. The two haybines I own are a New Holland 477 7' cut and a Ford 536 9' cut. Both have the normal long rock guards and both plug about the same, even when the guards/sickles/hold down clips are in top notch shape.

Stub guards may be an option depending on how much it would cost to switch over. My only holdup on this option would be cost and not knowing for sure if the stub guards would cut my grassy hay. Would hate to spend that much on guards and my time to swap them out and still have problems cutting.

I guess I have some options to weigh and think about. A New Idea cutditioner will use alot of power, but will for sure cut the hay without plugging. Depending on the flail blade condition, it may or may not leave stubble. Thanks for the comments and advice so far, keep them coming!

-Jesse
 
Stub guards certainly help, but nothing will entirely stop a haybine from plugging up in thick matted grass. And if you don't like mowing that stuff with a haybine, you'll HATE mowing it with a Cutditioner. There is a reason nothing even close to that is made any more. For 80 acres of hay you should have some sort of budget for equipment. A used disc mower or new drum mower will save you so much time you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner.

I have a field I mow every year that's so thick I averaged about an acre/hour with a 9' haybine. It felt like half my time was reversing to get it unclogged, stub guards or not. I can mow it 50 percent faster with a 6' drum mower than I ever did with a 9' haybine. I put the tractor in gear and never slow down.
 
I mowed a lot of hay with a cutditioner when I worked for a friend who had one , this was in the early -mid 1980's . He usually had
a 1650 Oliver on it and it ran it well. A 270 or 272 is only 6 ft cut , my experience is with a 272 . They take a lot of power to
run compared to a sickle type haybine,and the knives are a chore to replace or sharpen. The hay dries quite fast when cut with one
, a little better than a roller type mower/conditioner in similar conditions. You can run over windrows that got rain soaked and it
will fluff them up some if you dont have a tedder , but you lose some hay doing it. The oldest ones drove by a roller chain ,the
newer ones by belts. It is possible to get into real tall heavy grass hay that is too much for the machine ,escpecially if it is
wet. I found that mowing hay later in the day when it is drier helps alot with the plugging issues you describe. With real fine
stemmed grass a discbine would be a good investment , till then run sharp knives and keep the guareds changed regularly to keep the
sharpest possible cutting edge , and stub guards may help too. Maybe slow down a gear and see if that helps. I looked at a couple cutditioners a few years ago with the idea of using one as sort of an offset bush hog to mow field edges and the ones I came across were pretty well used up so I gave up on that idea.
 
I am a horse breeder. I raise and bale my own grass hay for my own horses and sell my excess to race horse people.
I looked into cutditioners for the same reasons you are considering them. What I learned is that they chop the hay and the animals love it
and eat it well....but it looks awful and is hard to sell because the buyers don't like the shredded look of it. Next. The machine takes a
lot of power to run and requires a lot of maintenance and constant sharpening. Based on that info..I did not buy one, although they are very
cheap...usually under $1000.
My solution was a Reese drum mower and a 2 basket tedder. Drum mowers and disc mowers both require at least 50HP...65 is better.
 

What many people miss, regarding haybines in low, thick grass is this...

The bar in front of the reel is supposed to push the hay over forward to expose the stems to the cutterbar for cutting, before the reel sweeps the cut hay into the conditioning rolls.

The bar is supposed to be positioned about 2/3 the height of what you're mowing. That's why you can often cut nice tall canarygrass at 3 tons per acre yield at high speed. It's nice and coarse at the stem... and the push bar is tipping it over for proper cut.

It wasn't until I read the manual for our Hesston haybines that I realized this...

The manual also mentioned that Hesston sold an optional apron to mount to that push bar, specifically for low growing second cut, or matted grass.

I've recently mowed fine, somewhat tangled grass/clover mix with our Hesston 1070 with stub guards at about 4 to 5 miles per hour... only needing to slow down a little for super tangled stuff.

And actually... there is a speed tipping point at the ground speed that matches the reel batten speed relative to the ground.

If you go slower than the reel batten speed... the reel is combing low/tangled hay the wrong direction (tops first) towards the cutterbar. This strains the reel drive...strains the cutterbar...makes for more plugging.

I found that, with well tuned, sharp sections... good stub guards with sharp cutting ledgers... I would often IMPROVE cutting performance if I speed up past the reel batten speed.

I'm actually going to fabricate an apron to mount to the push bar (since Hesston doesn't make them anymore)... and I wager I'll get even better performance.

I would love to spend 14K on a new disc cut-ditioner... but I can't.

And... everybody that I know that bought cheap, used disc mowers... cuts hay fast... but they also spend a lot of time and money fixing the problems that make those used disc mowers cheap.

I also have thoughts on the utility of conditioning rolls... to me... honestly... if you have a tedder? I don't think they are worth the mechanical trouble to keep them repaired and/or the tractor power to drive them.
 
Your comments bring up a good point, in general a properly adjusted machine will make many problems disappear. One more thought for
oldfarmall, sometimes if hay is down like after a storm it can help to mow it in one direction, takes longer but saves on plugging.
 
I bought a 279 Cutditioner for the exact same reasons you described in your post. The 279 is a nine-foot cut and works well with my 1650 Oliver, which is around 65
horsepower although it can bog down in heavy hay. The hay I cut is either all grass or 50% grass and 50% alfalfa. The 279 does a good job and doesn't seem to beat the
leaves off of alfalfa or make it hard to rake or bale (I do both small and round bales). I replaced all of the blades shortly after I bought it, and found a reasonable
place online that sold them. Most folks end up using them in pasture mowing which isn't the best for knife life. Very simple in operation and easy to repair. The front
shaft on the gearcase started to leak and it was easy to remove and reseal. Email me if you have any questions.
 
(quoted from post at 08:52:27 10/10/22) I bought a 279 Cutditioner for the exact same reasons you described in your post. The 279 is a nine-foot cut and works well with my 1650 Oliver, which is around 65
horsepower although it can bog down in heavy hay. The hay I cut is either all grass or 50% grass and 50% alfalfa. The 279 does a good job and doesn't seem to beat the
leaves off of alfalfa or make it hard to rake or bale (I do both small and round bales). I replaced all of the blades shortly after I bought it, and found a reasonable
place online that sold them. Most folks end up using them in pasture mowing which isn't the best for knife life. Very simple in operation and easy to repair. The front
shaft on the gearcase started to leak and it was easy to remove and reseal. Email me if you have any questions.

Thanks for the reply Kerwin on the opinion of your cutditioner. This is helpful. After looking back at the posts and suggestions from the members that commented, I am still leaning towards purchasing a cutditioner if I can find one. Most likely a 7 ft. model due to the HP that is required. Maybe I am nuts, but my reasoning is listed below:

1. I do not have the money to shell out for a discbine, disc mower, or drum mower in the near future. Plus, a used discbine may be worn out for what I can afford. $5,000-$8,000 may not be that much money for some, but to me that is a big investment for a hobby.

2. I do not have a tractor with 3 point hookup for a drum mower

3. Even a small discbine 8 or 9 foot model will still require alot of HP, so the HP requirements for the cutditioner are kind of a wash in my mind. My tractors are on the bottom edge of the HP required range for a discbine (50-60hp).

4. If I were to switch out my haybine to stub guards, parts will be in the $500+ range plus my time and labor to switch them over with no guarantee that they will not plug in the fine matted down grass.

5. The cutditioner will not be replacing the haybines, just used for cutting after fertilizer is applied.

6. The knives are still available aftermarket online, ranging from $10-21 each. Even at $21, I can re-knife a 7 foot machine for around $650 or less and know it will for sure cut the matted down fine grass.

7. Assuming I can find a machine in the $800 range as is (maybe the knives can be salvaged), or put new knives on it for $650. I should have less than $1,500 invested for something that will for sure cut the fine grass, plus I can use my current tractors.



Maybe I am nuts, but am I missing something for my given situation? Thanks again for the comments so far. This has given me alot to think about.

-Jesse
 
(quoted from post at 06:16:35 10/09/22) Your comments bring up a good point, in general a properly adjusted machine will make many problems disappear. One more thought for
oldfarmall, sometimes if hay is down like after a storm it can help to mow it in one direction, takes longer but saves on plugging.

Yup... and that direction with a haybine is with the tops pointing away from the sicklebar. Which tends to leave long stubble, which people hate.

Or... with a haybine... speed up the ground speed and slow down the reel (Hesston had two sprockets that you could put on the reel drive to adjust)... so that the sickle bar gets to the stems as much as possible, before the reel tries to comb the it into the machine. Then, maybe you could go at it tops first. I actually think that this method works best in either direction.

If you have an old sickle mower without a reel, you would probably be better off going into the downed crop with the tops facing the cutterbar.


I've used both types of sickle bar mowers... if you use the old style, without conditioning rolls... they work better if the hay falls over the top of the sickle bar tops first.

Haybines, which have a sickle bar mower, a reel and conditioning rolls... actually want the hay getting swept to the conditioning rolls stem first and tops last... for best performance.

That's what that push bar in front of the reel is all about.

To me, that's counterintuitive, but it's what the manual says, and it makes sense if you think about it.

This post was edited by lastcowboy32 on 10/10/2022 at 09:53 am.
 

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