Need JD 24T knotter HELP

jaoneill

Member
Neighbor borrowed my 24T and, long story short, his hired man pulled the knotter apart. They got it back together but, when I went over to see why it wouldn't tie, I found that the tucker fingers were beginning their cycle too soon; tips of TF actually scraping by the needle tips as the come up. They apparently had both the needle cam and the knotter clutch off and my sense is that one, or both must be one spline off on the main knotter shaft causing the intermittent gear to engage the pinions too soon. These knotters are fairly simple and designed to be easy to repair so I would assume that there are some sort of "timing" or "register" marks and/or a procedure to get the needles and the knotting mechanism back in sync. In looking at the mechanism (pic below) I see an inverted "U" shape on the intermittent gear and a corresponding nub on the frame bracket. Could aligning these be the answer? If not, what might it be?
mvphoto62401.jpg
 
The knotter clutch was worn and one had to keep the rpm's at 540 or it wouldn't go all the way to the home position and shear a pin. They can't seem to get their communist Mahindra throttle to hold and were constantly shearing pins. I've had a replacement for the clutch that I never seemed to get around to installing and they thought that since I was kind enough to let them use the baler (they have had it for 3-4 years but they only do a couple hundred bales a year) that they would fix it for me.
This isn't my first rodeo and I'm sure that I can get it back in sync but it might save me a bunch of time if I had a bit of direction from someone who has been there and done that. It's been 30-35 years since we went round and I've done any more than simple knotter maintenance. There is nothing in my books that references the problem.
 
So you lent out a piece of equipment that was n need of repair,which you shouldn't have done in the first place then you blame it on the hired man and the tractor.For your information Mahindra is not made in a communist country they are made in India.We have 2 Mahindra's and they are far better built then any blue green or orange tractor.
 
I should apologize for offending your tender sensibilities. No offense was meant by "communist Mahindra", I'm well aware of where they are built, the politics over there, and that they are probably as good as any other machine. By way of explanation, 50 years ago we referred to anything not made in the USA as "communist", especially if it was metric. It became a standing joke here amongst my friends & neighbors to continue to do so. Old habits die hard but I will be more careful in future to be more "woke" when posting on here. Also, I wasn't blaming anyone or anything, I was simply explaining the situation, the part was worn and here is who attempted to fix it and why. :D
 
(quoted from post at 05:18:03 09/27/20) I should apologize for offending your tender sensibilities. No offense was meant by "communist Mahindra", I'm well aware of where they are built, the politics over there, and that they are probably as good as any other machine.

Are you aware that a number of "Mahindra" models are simply re-badged TYC's from Korea?
 
(quoted from post at 10:48:05 09/27/20)

Are you aware that a number of "Mahindra" models are simply re-badged TYC's from Korea?
I wasn't but since I am not in the market for another tractor I haven't bothered to keep up with the "rebadging" game. Any tractor has its pluses and minuses, fans and detractors, I am not one who really cares what it is unless it is one of mine; to each his own!
 
looks like nobody can offer help here for you, jump forums to tractor tales and put a shout out to a member who goes by the handle. “old”. rich is very
knowledgable on the older jd balers.
 
Good chance it is out of time on one or more of the chains and if out of time by one tooth they can/will do odd things
 
(quoted from post at 13:41:49 09/27/20) Good chance it is out of time on one or more of the chains and if out of time by one tooth they can/will do odd things

That was my first thought. We rechecked the timing chains twice, turning the flywheel by hand and, unless we missed something, they are spot on. I moved the clutch back one spline and when I have a flywheel turner Monday will reinstall the final timing chain (to the clutch) and see what that does.
 
Also if a chain was replaced it has to have the same number of link in it as the old one or it will throw timing off
 
(quoted from post at 15:05:06 09/27/20) Also if a chain was replaced it has to have the same number of link in it as the old one or it will throw timing off
Thanks for the replies Old, you bring up good points. It's the same chain.
 
By the way the number of chain link is something I learned from an old long since dead baler repair man
 
(quoted from post at 15:26:19 09/27/20) By the way the number of chain link is something I learned from an old long since dead baler repair man
Same here. I worked with an old baler repair guy back in the early sixties when in high school. By the time I had a driver's license in '63 I was one of the dealership's farm field knotter guys during summer vacations. I wasn't kidding when I said above this isn't my first rodeo, and I think I resolved the problem this morning, but it's been close to sixty years since I have been seriously into a knotter and a bit of a refresher from someone with more recent experience might have expidited the process.
 
I know what you mean. I've done things in the past but if I had to do them now I would not have a clue how I did what I had done. Like the time I used a power steering pump on a Farmall B to give it hyds. I don't remember how I mounted it but I did
 
(quoted from post at 13:05:06 09/27/20) Also if a chain was replaced it has to have the same number of link in it as the old one or it will throw timing off

Chain length may affect other brand small sq balers but not JD 24T or any other JD small sq baler I've owned or operated. My knowledge of balers other than JD is very limited.

Please explain how number of links in a chain affects JD baler timing? No matter how many total links a chain has there are """exactly the same number of links""" on the section of chain that supplies power from the drive sprocket to driven sprocket. Chain idler removes slack in off side of chain.
 


I had the knotters of the 336 that I had off and apart. Getting them back together in proper timing was no big deal following the specs in the manual. It is easier these days than it used to be. You can have your manual in front of you in about two minutes.
 
(quoted from post at 10:18:10 09/28/20)

I had the knotters of the 336 that I had off and apart. Getting them back together in proper timing was no big deal following the specs in the manual. It is easier these days than it used to be. You can have your manual in front of you in about two minutes.
The general timing (plunger/feeder teeth/needles/knotter is not an issue, it's simple enough. The issue is the position of the needles and the knotter clutch in relation to the intermittent gear.
 
(quoted from post at 11:08:47 09/28/20)
(quoted from post at 10:18:10 09/28/20)

I had the knotters of the 336 that I had off and apart. Getting them back together in proper timing was no big deal following the specs in the manual. It is easier these days than it used to be. You can have your manual in front of you in about two minutes.
The general timing (plunger/feeder teeth/needles/knotter is not an issue, it's simple enough. The issue is the position of the needles and the knotter clutch in relation to the intermittent gear.

The manual doesn't cover it.
 
(quoted from post at 08:14:45 09/28/20)
(quoted from post at 12:10:38 09/28/20)
(quoted from post at 09:10:00 09/28/20)

The manual doesn't cover it.

I checked JD website & if JD offered a tech manual for a 24T it's not listed.

I searched high and low for one and came up empty....
Look on ebay...there seems to be quite a few manuals listed for sale.
 
(quoted from post at 10:18:16 09/28/20)


Look on ebay...there seems to be quite a few manuals listed for sale.

I checked Ebay & I located ""no true technical manual"" but I did locate operators manuals which don't contain the same information as a TM or SM.
 
I would recommend calling Finger Lakes equipment. They
should be able to help you with your problems and any part
you would need. (585)526-6705.
 
FYI, it sounds like the entire baler needs to be re-timed. If they had the knotter apart, they had to
remove the knotter drive chain, which is probably how things got out of the. They also need to make
sure any shear pins or shear bolts are not half sheared. That will throw time off too. But they really need
a manual from JD.
 
(quoted from post at 14:03:01 09/28/20) FYI, it sounds like the entire baler needs to be re-timed. If they had the knotter apart, they had to
remove the knotter drive chain, which is probably how things got out of the. They also need to make
sure any shear pins or shear bolts are not half sheared. That will throw time off too. But they really need
a manual from JD.
The knotter drive chain is simple; all of the basic timing is covered in the owners manual. Issue is the needle/knotter drive clutch/intermittent gear relationship.

Thank you JK-NY!!!!!!!!! A call to Finger Lakes is on the agenda!!
 
(quoted from post at 03:35:25 09/28/20)
(quoted from post at 13:05:06 09/27/20) Also if a chain was replaced it has to have the same number of link in it as the old one or it will throw timing off

Chain length may affect other brand small sq balers but not JD 24T or any other JD small sq baler I've owned or operated. My knowledge of balers other than JD is very limited.

Please explain how number of links in a chain affects JD baler timing? No matter how many total links a chain has there are """exactly the same number of links""" on the section of chain that supplies power from the drive sprocket to driven sprocket. Chain idler removes slack in off side of chain.

Tx Jim, you are right! It makes no difference if there are a dozen extra links in the chain. The manual specifies how many between sprockets.
 

I took some photos today of a friend's 24T that has been in use this fall, baling straw.

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wFoSHBN.jpg


MMV58SU.jpg


Notice in the third photo the roller on the intermittent gear that activates the tucker fingers is more or less centered above the knotter shaft, between tying cycles, with the needles in the "home" position.
 
(quoted from post at 22:39:46 09/28/20)
I took some photos today of a friend's 24T that has been in use this fall, baling straw.

Notice in the third photo the roller on the intermittent gear that activates the tucker fingers is more or less centered above the knotter shaft, between tying cycles, with the needles in the "home" position.

wore out
Isn't the only correct method to alter "home position" of knotter gear(key 11) is by relocating arm(key 6) on needle lift shaft(key 17)? I've repaired mostly wire tie balers very few twine tie balers.
Thanks,Jim

mvphoto62516.png
 
(quoted from post at 00:39:46 09/29/20)
Notice in the third photo the roller on the intermittent gear that activates the tucker fingers is more or less centered above the knotter shaft, between tying cycles, with the needles in the "home" position.
That is exactly what I needed to know "wore out". That pic and your sentence here says it all!! Thank you, thank you, no one else seemed to understand what I was asking for. Much appreciated!

Jim
 
Tx Jim, You're warm. The "home position" can also be altered by repositioning the clutch (11) on the splines of the shaft. Now picture someone removing both the lift arm and the clutch then randomly reinstalling them. The challenge is to get it all back in sync. I would love to have whatever manual you copied that schematic from, was it a parts manual?

Jim
 
(quoted from post at 05:34:09 09/29/20) Tx Jim, You're warm. The "home position" can also be altered by repositioning the clutch (11) on the splines of the shaft. Now picture someone removing both the lift arm and the clutch then randomly reinstalling them. The challenge is to get it all back in sync. I would love to have whatever manual you copied that schematic from, was it a parts manual?

Jim
JD 24T parts catalog can be accessed at JDparts.com
https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/navigation/equipment/65819/level/2/snp/NTk2ODA6Q0hBUFRFUlsxMDYxOiNCVVNJTkVTU19SRUdJT04sNjE0NzojQ0FUQUxPRyw2NTgxOTpFUVVJUE1FTlRd

I fairly confident that knotter intermitten gear(key 11) is secured to shaft by a key(16) not splines. Now that I've thought some more I think trip dog hub(key 43) splines on needle lift shaft shaft but it's been many yrs since I sold 24T parts.

I was employed by a JD dealer from '65-'87 so I'm more familiar with JD parts schematics than the average farmer.
 
I fairly confident that knotter intermitten gear(key 11) is secured to shaft by a key(16) not splines. Now that I've thought some more I think trip dog hub(key 43) splines on needle lift shaft shaft but it's been many yrs since I sold 24T parts.

Thanks Jim! You are correct in that the intermittent gears are keyed. Ends of shaft are splined, which is where the issue is/was. I think I resolved it the other day, moving both the needle arm and the clutch each one spline in opposite directions, but was by myself and need to get back over there when they have someone available to turn the flywheel to re-set the timing chain and run through a tie cycle while I watch. The third pic above, by wore out, gives me what I needed to know (orientation of intermittent gears when in home position). I can now check mine against pic before proceeding.
 
(quoted from post at 05:30:12 09/29/20)
Thanks for update & congratulations.
Jim

I've owned 24T and worked on a number of others, but have never taken the parts off of the splined ends of the knotter shaft, I have to wonder if there's some timing marks on the end of the shaft and the arm or clutch?

Seems like there would be.
 
Jim[/quote]
That was my original question. It's been close to sixty years since I have been that deep into a knotter. I knew what the problem was but was looking for a difinitive resolution, which would be marks or aligning points to register needles/intermittent gears/knotter clutch. The pics above will do it. Thank you!
 
I don't remember ever witnessing the disassembly of the 24T needle lift shaft but I agree I'll bet there's timing marks on the ends of the shaft
or at least timing instructions in printed form.
 
(quoted from post at 11:04:47 09/29/20) I don't remember ever witnessing the disassembly of the 24T needle lift shaft but I agree I'll bet there's timing marks on the ends of the shaft
or at least timing instructions in printed form.
I thank everyone for their responses! WE WON!! I went over today with wore out's pics in hand and found that my intuitive guess was only one spline off on the needle arm, I had the trip clutch right. So, the secret to the alignment of those elements is to have the tucker finger trip roller vertical, directly above the shaft when in the home position.
Installed the knotter drive chain and spun the flywheel through a tie cycle and all is as it should be. Came home for a late lunch, they will reinstall the knotter brake this afternoon and I will go over in the AM and we'll thread the needles and run some hay through it to make sure it's tying as it should.
 

If it in fact does tie we need to find you a "Dr. of Knotters" certificate to frame and hang on your wall!
 

jaoneill
I can't determine from your last post if you checked PH to needle timing. If not I highly suggest you complete that task before taking baler to hay field.
 
(quoted from post at 07:02:32 10/01/20)
jaoneill
I can't determine from your last post if you checked PH to needle timing. If not I highly suggest you complete that task before taking baler to hay field.
PH; plunger head? The needle drive shaft chain had been removed so I set that timing when reinstalling the chain. Thanks for the concern but I also watched all of the parts and pieces as the plunger was spun by hand. As I had indicated way back in the beginning of this thread, up to 35 years ago when folks mostly went "round" (and I got out of dairy farming) I was the go to guy for knotter trouble-shooting and repair. Even in this instance I knew what the problem was but was looking for confirmation on the fixit process.
 
(quoted from post at 18:58:11 09/30/20) If it in fact does tie..........

Update: went over today, threaded the needles and since haying weather won't happen here until next year, pulled up to the hay barn and put a few round bales worth of hay through the old girl. Missed the first knot on one side but went on to tie 30 bales, that's 60 perfect knots. String cuts above the knots were a bit rough but a few strokes of the file on the sweep arm knives and she's as good to go in the spring!
 

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