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Implement Alley Discussion Forum

NH271 baler missing knots of and on

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old

09-11-2019 20:51:38




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So I baled around 100 bales today. It was hit and miss on the left hand knotter. Twine is not being cut off the bill hook like it should be. I think I need to sharpen the knife up a bit more. Odd thing is it was doing just fine and would miss one out of say 10 bales then all at once it got to where it was missing most. Oh well such is life with old machines




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lastcowboy32

09-13-2019 14:58:05




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
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Well... grease and sharpen away... maybe put some penetrating oil on that little brass ball on the end of the wiper arm.

The wiper arm moving quickly helps to make a quick, sharp, cut too.



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old

09-13-2019 15:00:32




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-13-2019 14:58:05  
In stead of oil I'll use ATF LOL



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lastcowboy32

09-13-2019 12:34:47




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
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Here is something else to think about. That knife isn't very big to begin with. I could see where some cycles of sitting around and getting rusted...then getting honed until it's not rusty... then making some bales...

After a few cycles of that, maybe the knife is getting small?
They aren't that big to begin with.

It wouldn't take that much rusting/honing/wearing to get it small enough so that there isn't even two twines' worth of knife thickness before the wiper arm itself hits the twine.

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old

09-13-2019 12:43:46




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-13-2019 12:34:47  
I found 2 grease fitting I had not greased and they are part of the knotters so that may make a difference. I'll know maybe by Tuesday since the computer weather says 0% chance of rain till Thursday or next week. The end of the twine at the knots is frayed by the way



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lastcowboy32

09-13-2019 08:34:47




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
With our late first cut fields, I'm reminded of a saying that the oldest of old-timers around here, the ones that had dairy cattle before the DHIA (Dairy Herd Indebtedness Association.... ) got everybody cutting their hay four times a year...

The saying was...

"If you can't get your hay by July 1st; leave it until September 1st."

With some fields and seeding combinations, I feel that's actually true.

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old

09-13-2019 10:56:00




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-13-2019 08:34:47  
I got some of my first cutting done in June and most of it in the first part of July. Fill my hay barn with round bales and had more then I do in a normal year for first cutting. Most year it takes first and second cutting to fill the hay barn



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lastcowboy32

09-13-2019 08:31:57




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
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Same boat here. Our knotters are working well. But it's pushing deep into September now. We have one more field of second cut and the weather forecast is: sun, rain, sun, rain.

The last time we did second cut, we were able to go on two full drying days. For instance, cut Saturday afternoon, bale Monday night, just before dew.

But, it's starting to get to the point where we would need one more day of daylight.

Looks like, here in CNY, we might get a run from Sunday to Wednesday coming up. That would be fantastic.

That would finish second cut and just leave about a thousand bales of fall first cut to do; which doesn't need as much dry time. We have a few fields seeded to brome and birdsfoot; which actually doesn't turn out that bad in late September or even early October for first cut. It's sort of a combination of dead growth with a lot of green regrowth mixed in.

Given how rainy it's been this summer, I'm grateful that we even have a shot at getting all of the fields cleared at all.

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lastcowboy32

09-13-2019 07:41:57




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
Good luck and git er dun...



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old

09-13-2019 07:45:42




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-13-2019 07:41:57  
Well right now i am wait for 4 day with out rain so I can cut more hay down and then rake and bale again. Hard to mess with when you have no hay down to test it on. LOL



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lastcowboy32

09-13-2019 07:22:49




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
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Well, my "Old" friend... I don't doubt what you see. So... what could cause that?

Dull knife...like you said

Wiper arm not swinging far enough to cut/wipe

Loose twine discs... which wouldn't hold the twine tight enough to cut/wipe

Burrs on the bill hook... but... I would think that would result in a fully cut knot hanging

Other bill hook issues

Maybe you can tell one issue from the other by looking at what is cut?

When the knife cuts, does it cut cleanly, or make frayed ends (here is where the pun "I'm a frayed knot." would be a great reply...)

In the troubleshooting guide, there are many problems caused by dull knives, but usually one of the symptoms of that is frayed ends that aren't cut neatly.

If the plastic twine isn't cutting cleanly, even after your initial honing...that would be a strong indicator toward dull knife.

If the twine is cutting cleanly...but only one twine and not the other... then that would point toward twine disc; wiper arm swing issues.

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old

09-13-2019 07:27:45




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-13-2019 07:22:49  
Knot is only cut part way so the bale then gets pushed back so the knot then breaks what did not get cut. Since it is only me it is hard to turn the flywheel and watch the knotter at the same time. I've had this problem before and it has always been a dull knife. Guess maybe I need to pull out th JD 14T manual I have an see what it says. Ya not the NH manual but trouble shooting should pretty much be the same

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MJMJ

09-13-2019 06:40:34




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
Not saying it's not the knife, but the knife only cutting partially through the string is also a symptom of other issues. It's the easiest fix so I'd certainly try it first.



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old

09-13-2019 07:02:05




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to MJMJ, 09-13-2019 06:40:34  
Well yes I am of course doing the easy things before doing harder things. This old baler has done well since I pulled it out of a fence row and brought it back to life. Then I let it sit in the weeds for 2 or 3 years and when parked it worked just fine but now of course it is causing a few small problems. Will be likely to buy some new twine today since I have pretty much all the square bales I can do sold before I have have it baled

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lastcowboy32

09-13-2019 06:27:40




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
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Well... I mean... here's the thing... if the knotters were covered well enough to keep the billhook from pitting, then the knives shouldn't have really corroded much either.

And..yeah, I've only had my own baler (now two balers) for five years, but I was running a friend's baler for about five years before that, essentially doing all the maintenance and stuff...
Previous to that (and even now, once in a while)... I worked with my brother on my parents' farm since I was a kid, and back home, we had 120 milkers and an equal number of brood beef cows and assorted youngstock... we were doing 30,000 to 40,000 small squares a year, with my brother doing all the maintenance on his old 273 and now a 575.

Which...really... who cares? Doesn't make me a genius... One thing I do know, from all of that time, is that none of us have ever sharpened a wiper arm knife over the course of what? A half million bales?

Now... my brother once replaced a whole wiper arm on his 273; which would come with a new knife.

Point is, if you paid any attention at all to sharpening your wiper arm knife, you probably got it good enough to work with a properly tuned baler.

If you are having to go under there with 2000 grit Japanese water stones and hone them until you can see your reflection...then you are sharpening your knife enough to mask another problem... probably.

In the end, though... I know you're doing a few hundred bales... if it works to get you through? Then your ponies won't care, as long as they get some hay this winter.

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old

09-13-2019 06:31:45




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-13-2019 06:27:40  
Condensation is all it takes to rust the knife and that is what has happen to the knife



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Case Nutty 1660

09-13-2019 05:39:16




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
if you are having a hard time sharpening with it still in the knotter frame when you have it flipped up pullt he cotter pin and washer off and remove it and sharpen it,, I also always check the knotter shear bolt ( the little one on the knotter drive gear) I have seen them partially sheared and be just out of time enough to make them screw up one knotter tying, the advice on the brass roller is sound,, I use oil on them myself,, also a hook worn sharp on the bill hook or a jaw on the billhook will cause you grief,,

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old

09-13-2019 06:33:30




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to Case Nutty 1660, 09-13-2019 05:39:16  
Reason I think it is the knife is the fact the knot is cut but not cut all the way so it hangs on the bill hook



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Case Nutty 1660

09-13-2019 15:21:56




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-13-2019 06:33:30  
I was just saying some of the causes I have seen over the last 45 plus years I have been working on them,, also seen the wiper arm bent to where it affects cutting,, but I will let you figure it out as you seem to already know sorry I even bothered



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RickB

09-13-2019 03:21:25




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
Maybe itís time to shake loose the $15-20 bucks and buy a knife kit. 2 knives and hardware to bolt them on the knife arms. 84204817



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old

09-13-2019 06:35:21




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to RickB, 09-13-2019 03:21:25  
I have extra knife arms for it but I do not think I need to do any of that since the knot is cut just not cut all the way so it hangs on the bill hook



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lastcowboy32

09-12-2019 14:39:50




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
Sitting around that long, you may also want to look at the bill hook... and the little brass ball on the end of the wiper arm.

The bill hook could be pitted and corroded. I usually give my baler a "pass" on getting one or two knots hung up the first day of baling in the spring, just because things might need to be smoothed up a bit after the winter.

Also, what about the little brass ball on the end of the wiper arm? Is that rolling freely and making sure that the wiper arm is wiping quickly and all of the way through its designed stroke?

Or...has it frozen in place and it's just smearing along in the cam, getting smaller and smaller and making the wiper arm sweep shorter and shorter?

I usually give that little brass ball a shot of penetrating oil the first day of baling in the spring.

(Listen to me say usually... I've only owned my own baler for five years or so... but... five years counts... right?)

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old

09-12-2019 14:48:00




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-12-2019 14:39:50  
Knotters where covered with knotter hood. All look nice and as it should be when I flipped the knotter. Been using square balers now since around 1980 so been around the block on them many times



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lastcowboy32

09-12-2019 12:54:36




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
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Your symptoms are also consistent with the twine discs not holding the twine. If the twine discs don't hold it tightly, you don't get a clean cut, and you don't get a good wipe off of the bill hook.

If you need to sharpen your knife to a one molecule edge, you may be masking the fact that the twine discs just aren't holding everything during the cut and wipe.

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old

09-12-2019 13:22:22




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to lastcowboy32, 09-12-2019 12:54:36  
The knot hang up in the bill hook so that is why I say it is the knife that is the problem. Had this happen many times in the past.



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MJMJ

09-12-2019 10:09:17




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
Mentioning the old twine brought back memories of another instance that I had similar trouble. Twine sat all winter on the metal shelf and caused week spots that I could break by hand. Every time one of the weak spots was pulled through the knotter I ended up with a mess. Again, it tied fine until it didn't.

In both cases, the twine was partially cut like you mention. But in my cases it was just the symptom of another problem. Sharpening the knives was the first thing I tried as well, but it didn't fix anything.

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old

09-12-2019 10:18:51




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to MJMJ, 09-12-2019 10:09:17  
I'm almost 100% sure it is the knife due to the fact after I sharpen the knife it did not miss a knot but they did hang on the bill hook and as it picked up more hay would pop the knot off the hook due to only having say 1/4 of the knot not cut



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ArleninOr

09-12-2019 12:16:38




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-12-2019 10:18:51  
Haven't sharpened a twine knife in probably 4 years and haven't missed a bale yet. I do a lot of hay every year. As Casenutty says, properly adjusted balers keep on working no matter how old. Just need to do maintenance. Have gotten some bad plastic twine in the past, so it can happen. Never say "Never".



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old

09-12-2019 13:25:14




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to ArleninOr, 09-12-2019 12:16:38  
This bale was parked out in the field for 2 or 3 years with out me using it so knifes are rusty. Had to pull black berry vines out of it. When I parked it a couple years ago it worked just fine



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ArleninOr

09-12-2019 09:31:46




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
Some people would buy new twine instead of using 3 year old rotten twine. Cheap insurance. Twine usually will get rotten spots in it sitting outside or inside if it gets any moisture in the air.



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old

09-12-2019 10:04:28




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to ArleninOr, 09-12-2019 09:31:46  
Plastic twine dose not rot.



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Adirondack case guy

09-12-2019 08:31:32




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
May be the knife being dull, the twine bent the wiper and knife arm.---------- Loren



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old

09-12-2019 08:39:19




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to Adirondack case guy, 09-12-2019 08:31:32  
Wiper arm is like it should be and nice and tight on the bill hook.. I checked that yesterday when I was trying to sharpen the twine knife. Have it so it cuts most of the knot but not all of it so need to do a bit more sharpening of the knife



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Bob

09-12-2019 07:55:24




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
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"Odd thing is it was doing just fine and would miss one out of say 10 bales then all at once it got to where it was missing most. "

Unless you can fond something obviously wrong, the first thing I'd do is try another ball of twin.

If that doesn't help, you are not out anything but a few minutes of your time, as you can always use the partial ball later.

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old

09-12-2019 08:02:26




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to Bob, 09-12-2019 07:55:24  
This twine is the same as has been in it for years now. It has sat for 2 or 3 years not being used till this year again. Last time I did use it, it did well but sitting tends to cause problems and since the knot is not being cut all the way off I figure it is a dull twine knife



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MJMJ

09-12-2019 06:18:15




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
My old MF did the same thing when I bought it. Might do 30 perfect, then miss one and make a huge knot. Always the same side. Went through the manual and checked every spec as I rolled it by hand. Eventually found my issue, the needle eye one one side was worn and through the dimension way off. Made a quick adjustment to get it in spec and it works perfect.
Your issue could be different, just pointing out that it's usually quickest to go through the manual step by step vs the shotgun approach of checking random things. I did that for two summers before just getting the manual out, only took about an hour or two.

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Case Nutty 1660

09-12-2019 04:58:25




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
Nothing to do with being old, new ones not adjusted correctly will miss just as many,, my 1950's Case balers set correctly will miss less than 1%, just made 420 bales and she missed none and was making 40-45 lb solid straw bales, few today or even back in the day know how to properly set one,, we sold Case then NH balers when Case dropped them in 1970,, but I have fixed about every color one that there is,, all can be made to tie correctly, these days to get me to come and work on one means you are a Very close friend or long time neighbor,, lol

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old

09-12-2019 07:43:01




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to Case Nutty 1660, 09-12-2019 04:58:25  
I'm pretty sure it is a dull twine knife since the knot stays on the bill hook. It is cut but not all the way cut so it hangs up on the bill hook



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Case Nutty 1660

09-12-2019 09:20:42




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-12-2019 07:43:01  
pull the kotter frame bolt on the chamber on that knotter rotate it up, makes the dressing of the knife easy, then make sure it is wiping across the billhook Tight if not a smack or two with a hammer will fix that,, if that is all thats wrong you will be baling with out misses,, takes me less than 5 min to do both items
cnt



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old

09-12-2019 10:07:20




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to Case Nutty 1660, 09-12-2019 09:20:42  
Already did that but did not get it as sharp as it needs to be. Before I did that it was not cutting the knot at all but after I sharpen it some it got a lot better but not as good as it needs to be yet



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Phil Tibbetts

09-12-2019 05:29:27




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to Case Nutty 1660, 09-12-2019 04:58:25  
Thought I was the only one still running an old case baler. Got a 200 that my father and I bought used in the late 60's. bought up all the old ones i could find that were junked to have for parts. it seldom misses a bale since I switched to the plastic twine. The sisal you get now is junk anyway. The biggest problem I have is shearing pins. The bushing in the flywheel is rough around the inner end and i think that is the reason. Can usually get 100 to 200 bales before it shears so no big deal. 5 minutes to put a new one in. i wonder if new bushings are available.

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Case Nutty 1660

09-12-2019 07:04:40




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to Phil Tibbetts, 09-12-2019 05:29:27  
I have a number of Case balers, 130/135/140W/200/220/and a 330 wire tie

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RJKeith

09-12-2019 05:39:46




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to Phil Tibbetts, 09-12-2019 05:29:27  
I use a Case 230, just a little newer than your 200. Also, last year mine started acting up when it went from the old bale of twine to a new one. Fought it for a while and came to the conclusion it was the twine. Got some higher tinsel strength twine but weeds are in the hay so bad this year I let a neighbor roll it for his cows, so I haven't tested it with the new twine.



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Phil Tibbetts

09-12-2019 05:54:45




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to RJKeith, 09-12-2019 05:39:46  
Have you tried the plastic twine? I was missing a lot of bales tying and switched to the plastic and almost never misses a bale now.



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John G. Williams

09-11-2019 21:29:39




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 Re: NH271 baler missing knots of and on in reply to old, 09-11-2019 20:51:38  
I have found that my MF12 baler knotters are addicted to grease. Are you giving them enough?



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