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I screwed up big time

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DLMKA

07-26-2015 05:29:20

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Finally got a chance to get hay cut, raked, and started baking with 24t. Started out great and about 20 bales in it missed a bale, went to look at the knot got caught on left side (closer to flywheel) billhook (? I don't know the names for all the pieces). Got it cleared out and was good for another 65 bales and saw another missed bale only this time both twine broke. Went back again and found carnage. What would have caused this? How do I fix it? This is making me sick. I just bought this equipment and this kind of failure is disheartening. Did I do something wrong?

I have a neighbor coming this morning to bale the last 4 acres.

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DLMKA

07-28-2015 20:04:16

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

Pretty sure I bent the right needle. Rubs the slot on the bottom of the bale chamber when turning over by hand. The tips of the needles are also in different locations when it comes past the tucker fingers. I know they are ductile iron, what's the procedure for tweaking back to proper shape? Dealer?

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Ed S. (IL)

07-27-2015 08:59:18

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

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I'll ditto that, too. 15.5 acres, 11 in hay. Both our boys are grown and out of the house now (were 9 & 12 when we "bought the farm") ��they got a lot of life lessons riding the racks, mucking out the barn and chicken coop, etc. Good stuff.

In 13 years, I've made a profit on hay exactly once (came close last year!). It's paid off handsomely in other, more substantive ways, though.

es

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GordoSD

07-30-2015 09:48:11

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to Ed S. (IL), 07-27-2015 08:59:18

Don't know where or what type of hay" you are making, but. I paid for my mower , rake and baler in one year with my alfalfa (second year for new seeding). Since then about 350 dollars per acre profit after P&K apps every year and taxes. The 4 cylinder turbo Farmall 95 made a huge difference in fuel costs. Less than 1/2 of what the 966 and SMTA used.

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jtrovillion

07-27-2015 07:14:48

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

Check brake shoes on timing wheel, they get worn to the point that there is nothing holding it in place. Will work fine setting or on smooth surfaces but will slip letting needles try to tie at wrong time braking them and other parts depending on how far the plunger is away when cycle starts, have had same problem on 24T and 336

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JD Seller

07-26-2015 21:00:21

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

Well I would say the tucker finger hit the side of the needle. Your going to need a new tucker finger shaft and knotter drive gear at the least. The knotter drive gear is the kicker as the entire knotter will have to be taken apart to replace it. You may want to look for a complete knotter from another baler or even a complete JD 24T for parts. If you can not do the work yourself your easily looking at a $500-1000 repair.

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DLMKA

07-27-2015 04:55:58

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to JD Seller, 07-26-2015 21:00:21

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I looked it up on the JD parts website. Those gears are the same from R to L. I can swap them. Will be an exercise in shimming to get the right gear mesh. That will get me back in business sooner and cheaper. Going to get the tucker shaft and links ordered today.

Will use dial indicator to measure axial play in intermittent gears before disassembly and replicate at re-assembly.

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notjustair

07-26-2015 16:52:00

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

I just finished putting 601 bales through the 24T hooked to the 4440. Not a single skip. I put 571 bales through it yesterday and 896 a week ago. They aren't a quick baler - I do it all in either A2 or A3. Grease it daily no matter how many bales you do. If you keep it greased and sort out this mess it will be reliable for decades. Mine usually skips two bales when the twine switches but that's it. It didn't even do that today. I must be living right!

You will get very adept at removing the 9/16 bolt and rotating the tie mechanism up. It seems if I ever have trouble it is with the wiper. There's a fine line between enough clearance and too much.

If I remember right there's a guy that has some YouTube videos on the 24T. They are pretty good. It's been a few years since I saw them but I bet they are still there. Someone mentioned this, but it bears repeating. A baler is kind of a Rube Goldberg contraption that actually works most of the time. If any bearings or bushings are worn replace them. If the chains have wiggle to them replace them. All of this adds just a little slop which grows with every gear or joint it goes through. The next thing you know the plunger, needles, or tie mechanism is timed off enough to break something. It may have been in good shape, but it will still take a few dollars to get it in field shape. That work will make you familiar with it's workings.

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rankrank1

07-26-2015 08:41:46

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

You are haying very similar acreage to me (6 to 6.5 acres is my atypical hay crop). I have not made the first dollar either which I am okay with, but by the same token do not want to lose a fortune doing it either. I actually enjoy all the tinkering.

Often times the challenge is finding the most cost effective repair for the problem. Anyone can throw exorborant money at a problem and fix it but fiscally smart should also be a factor too in the equation.

Your kids will learn a lot with all the tinkering. I know I did as a Kid on all our old junky farm equipment back then for soybeans(none of it hay equipment though). The stuff Dad and I use to fix without spending money was amazing and we had no welder either. Creative fixes with simple tools often turned into real brain teasers. Dad gone now, but having a welder opens up a whole world to repair possibilities. Sure wish Dad and I had a welder way back then...a $100 craigslist hydraulic press has proved invaluable for me too.

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rankrank1

07-26-2015 08:20:30

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

As for the switching the cam possibilities. Never ran a 24T, but creative thinking like that will help you save money if it works out. Parts site may offer a clue but you will need to shim accordingly if you make the move the cams as the wear will now likely now in a totally different spot if you move it compare to its original home spot.

Without specs to reference it sometimes turns into trial and error till you get it acceptably workable spinning everything by hand of course so you do not break anything.

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draftx

07-26-2015 08:19:42

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

Replacing that bent tucker finger shaft is basic and easy. Those yellow intermittent gears are not the original ones, so that tells you this baler has been repaired at some time before. Yes the are interchangeable, if the teeth are not chipped off any place, inspect the teeth on them carefully. That whole rack od knotters, gears and all comes off with 6 small bolts. Very easy to take to the shop for repair. Hope your knotter frames are not cracked or broken. Go search out a baler mechanic in your area, maybe find a retired guy that still does a little on the side. Is the rest of the baler decent and worth putting money into is your next question.

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rankrank1

07-26-2015 08:13:09

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

Your manual will be the best resource you will find if it anything at all like the New Holland manuals that I use.

Also the parts diagrams are invaluable too. You can look at the parts diagram on JD parts site for free.

That all said, rarely do the manuals go into specific detail on where to add shims when needed as the manufacturer often never intended for these things to still be in use 50 years later. That often comes with mechanical experience, understanding how it works, and sadly sometimes learning something new the hard way like I did a couple years ago and you did this time. No one got hurt so do not fret over it too much. It is fixable, people are not.

Just one of the many hidden costs of making hay.

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DLMKA

07-26-2015 08:20:51

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to rankrank1, 07-26-2015 08:13:09

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I'm really not in this to make money. I have 12 acres, 7 in hay. Was just going to hire it out but no one would come do it. I understand the weather this year had a big role in it. I do it to give my kids some valuable life lessons. Lessons in common sense, tinkering, thinking on your feet, and compassion for animals that ultimately become food. I'll buy the parts and do the work and will come out with a pretty good understanding of how the knotters work. Right now it's a black box to me. Growing up we had a 14t but dad did wrenching and we moved into town when I was ~13.

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DLMKA

07-26-2015 07:57:17

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

Overall the baler is (was) in good shape. I ran it by hand a for a while before hooking to a PTO. Ran off PTO at idle for a while. Greased everything that I could find.
I can tinker, that's not a problem. I've got manuals coming now. Is there a good book or reference for how the knotters should be set?
Is there a good place that points out the names of all the pieces in a knotter? I don't know what all the parts are called.
Can the cams be switched around right for left and left for right? Looks like the tucker is only attached to the cam I broke.

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rankrank1

07-26-2015 07:45:38

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

I agree with the other poster that the needle likely hit the knotter frame and caused the carnage.

Knotter frames wear over time but they can be shimmed to compensate for that wear. All them shim washers you see on that one shaft are to adjust for wear and get clearances where the should be. Looks like something could be missing where those shim washers are all loose (could be result of the carnage? or it was way way way past due for adding some shims).

Additionally the needles have to be adjusted occasionally so they lightly rub the frame like they supposed to but not too much interference either or carnage. Impossible to adjust needles if the knotter frame is moving all over the place due to excessive slop.
A badly rusted out out area where the needle yoke pivot attaches to the frame or chamber can also make it nearly impossible to keep the needles in proper adjustment in relation to the knotter frame. Cure for that is welding in new metal to shore up the support structure.

I learned the rusted out metal problem the hard way a couple years ago. I broke one knotter frame as well as a needle when otherwise perfectly adjusted needles flexed on the yoke due to rusted out metal. Was not a cheap fix but an invaluable lesson for me. Doing all the work myself cost me $300 plus many hours to fix with salvage yard parts. Spent many hours fixing my rusted out support metal problems too by welding in some scrap metal (free fix other than my time and electricity for welder).

Many people think they simply going to plop their fanny in the tractor seat and watch the money roll out the back of the baler. Not how it works at all especially when using a machines like a 24T that is at least 40 years to 50 years old.

Tinker time if you handy, but will likely be an expensive fix if you have to hire it all done. Creative repairs with welding and brazing where possible to save any repairable parts will lessen the parts you may need to buy. Being able to do work yourself, repair parts, weld braze etc are essiential skills for a small time operator like me.
This post was edited by rankrank1 at 08:03:39 07/26/15 4 times.

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mtny

07-26-2015 07:35:01

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

Whenever you drag something home , clean it , grease and oil it and run it before you need to. I've been lax before , same outcome.

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jleus

07-26-2015 07:26:53

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

A thread to watch as I have a 24t that gets relatively lite use but would be bad news if I broke it that bad.

would chain/sprocket health be root cause of that? stretch or jumping a tooth. Is a broke needle part of the damage?

I get accused of over greasing but there is far less evidence of lubrication there than I am comfortable with.

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WellWorn

07-26-2015 07:13:15

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

Join the club. I've made a couple bigger messes of equipment because there just wasn't time to make sure it was exactly right before hitting the field. The one error saved me about an hour up front, but cost me about a grand in parts and several days work in the shop.
Never assume that used equipment (or sometimes even new) is set up and working properly. Balers are complex machines that rely on simple processes, but those movements requiring exact timing and darn good positioning. Age, rust and wear can make finding the exact problem cause(s) difficult. If you can deconstruct the damage and can see what hit what, you've just earned some valuable baler wisdom.

I have a borrowed 24T in the yard while I work on my baler, and even though it came from a field where it baled, the owner has been sheering flywheel bolts, and wants me to figure it out. He thinks it has to do with the needle position and plunger stop dog. I ran it slow, tripped the knotter and watched to see if there was any position problem, looked for improper rub spots, and listened for any 'tick, or 'thud' that shouldn't be there, before it went to work in my field.
I did shear one bolt when the header delayed then passed a slug that the plunger couldn't cut, and another when it looked like the needles stopped mid cycle (appears the cycle dog dropped out). I think I've found the problem, but had to finish the field before dark yesterday. I'll do a full check (and hopefully a fix as needed) on that before it hits the field again. I don't need to make a borrowed baler an expensive lesson.

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Hay maker2

07-26-2015 06:03:57

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 05:29:20

Did you happen to adjust the needles this spring? When I see the tucker shaft bent like that, that usually means the tuck finger was not clearing the needle and when the needle came up it finally rubbed enough and caught a bur and bent the tucker shaft.

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bjr

07-26-2015 10:36:46

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to Hay maker2, 07-26-2015 06:03:57

Bent twine fingers is what I'm dealing with on a Hesston inline at the moment and ,yes, I adjusted the needles as well. I'm assuming the finger shaft can be straighten with a arbor press or stuck in big vise and straightened with a bigger piece of pipe. Good luck with your project, I'm fighting my own wars with this Hesston. bjr

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RickB

07-26-2015 09:09:28

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to Hay maker2, 07-26-2015 06:03:57

"Did you happen to adjust the needles this spring? When I see the tucker shaft bent like that, that usually means the tuck finger was not clearing the needle and when the needle came up it finally rubbed enough and caught a bur and bent the tucker shaft."

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

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DLMKA

07-26-2015 12:32:24

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to RickB, 07-26-2015 09:09:28

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So what do I need to locate to get this fixed? Obviously a tucker shaft. I cleared the hay out of the chamber just now and ran the knotter with tucker fingers out of the way to get a better look at the needles and how they come through the knotter. They do seem to rub pretty hard going up to the top, there is a groove wore into the right (far from flywheel) and that needle has been brazed in the eyelet. The other needle has a fair groove wore into it from years of use. Looking at the cams I'm 99% sure they are identical and in good shape other than the threaded boss being blown out of the one with the bushing for the tucker control.

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wolfman

07-26-2015 19:37:19

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to DLMKA, 07-26-2015 12:32:24

I bent a tucker rod on a JD 336 earlier this season; It happened when a piece of hard wood about hammer handle size was in a windrow.

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Tyler-MO

07-27-2015 19:35:23

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to wolfman, 07-26-2015 19:37:19

I've got some 24T spare parts from a baler I bought a few years ago. I think of knotter frame is there along with the intermittent gear that is broken on your baler.

Contact me directly if you like as my email is open.

Tyler in IL

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DLMKA

07-28-2015 05:00:43

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Re: I screwed up big time in reply to Tyler-MO, 07-27-2015 19:35:23

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Can't send you email directly. My email is moechnig (at) gmail (dot) com

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