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Garden Tractors Discussion Forum

Motor oil

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Dakota Wilson

11-16-2018 13:09:17




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I have a case 222 and a case 444 I was wondering what's the best weight of motor oil to put in it for the winter in live in northern ohio so the temps can be really cold or mild just depends on mother nature thanks!




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Brian G. NY

12-13-2018 10:10:33




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to Dakota Wilson, 11-16-2018 13:09:17  
The manual for my Ford (Jake built) Kohler Powered tractor from the late sixties specifies:

Use only dertergent type oils with API service MS classification according to the following temperature viscosity chart.

Air Temp. Single Viscosity *Multiple Viscosity

Above 30 deg----- SAE 30----- SAE 10W-30

0 to 30 deg------- SAE 10----- SAE 10W-30

Below 0 deg--------------------- SAE 5W-20

*Multiple viscosity oils are needed only as an aid to cold starting.

So, how many of the small engines any of us are working with date back before then?

Certainly some, but I'd guess not the majority.

If the owners of these engines from the mid to late sixties forward had used the recommended oils,

they would not have been using non-detergent oils.

At 77, I remember non-detergent oils and I remember sludge as well. Back in the fifties, I had a couple of cars that used oil to the rate of a quart every couple hundred miles.

The oil of choice for those cars was Gulf "Saphire".....about 2 bucks for 2 gallons......parafin based and as thick as molasses in the winter. LOL

He!!, sludge will even build up to some degree with the use of HD oils especially when oil is not changed as it should be.

I use Mobil I 10W30 in all my small engines winter and summer,

including some of my tractors dating back to 1968.

I can believe that switching from non detergent to detergent oil may remove sludge and varnish but only gradually over time.

To me, synthetic oils are simply the best of the detergent oils available today.

I have read many of the posts about oils here over the years but I have, until now, chosen not to comment.

Probably a big mistake!! LOL

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MNGB

12-05-2018 06:01:14




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to Dakota Wilson, 11-16-2018 13:09:17  
And what do those forums have to do with small engine and I'll place must trust in the OEM owner operator manual over what uncle joes's brother in-law says anyday of the week

GB in MN



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tom arnold

12-05-2018 06:54:28




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to MNGB, 12-05-2018 06:01:14  
It does not matter if the engine is water-cooled, air-cooled, is single cylinder or a V16. When gasoline is burned, there are byproducts created by that combustion and those byproducts will contaminate the oil. Over time, owner/operator manuals change just as oil composition changes. Prior to the 50's, motor oil did not contain any detergents. Then again, prior to the 50's, most engines needed to be fully rebuilt prior to 100,000 miles of use. Mechanics who have worked on engines prior to the introduction of detergent based oils are familiar with the amount of sludge that can build up inside the engine. In the 50's I was asked to set the valves on Chevrolet Stove Bolt six. When I removed the valve cover, it was difficult to determine that I HAD removed the valve cover because the black sludge had built up to the point where it took the shape of the valve cover completely.

I spent over an hour removing that jelly-like sludge in order to perform the valve adjustment. I have also seen oil pans with large build-ups of black sludge. I have also torn down small air-
cooled engines that had the valve spring area choked with sludge. The links I provided were a long way from "uncle Joe's brother-in-law says" but apparently you dismiss all information that does not agree with your opinion.

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MNGB

12-04-2018 20:59:58




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to Dakota Wilson, 11-16-2018 13:09:17  
There is not one engine mfg Briggs Kohler Tecumseh Honda Kawasaki Predator that recommends non-detergent oil they all state in the owner/operators manual to use a good quality detergent oil most all now recommend multi-grade oils at least in winter temps. As I posted before there are no scrubbing bubble in detergent oil that cleans the crankcase.
GB in MN



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tom arnold

12-04-2018 23:21:46




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to MNGB, 12-04-2018 20:59:58  
Well GB........not everyone agrees with your position.

https://www.fillingstation.com/articles/earlyengineoil.htm


Here is another one.

https://www.oldcarsweekly.com/restoration/restoration-tips/new_oil_and_old_cars

The following paragraph can be found in that article.

"Here are a few more recommendations that have served me well over the years:
Unless an engine has been completely rebuilt and thoroughly cleaned in the process, do not switch to a synthetic if it hasnít been used in the engine. Also, do not switch to a detergent-
containing oil if only a non-detergent oil has been used. I regularly use 15W40 multi-viscosity oil as it imposes no limitation on starting down to 15 degrees Fahrenheit and provides good protection for hot weather driving."

HERE IS ANOTHER ONE.

http://oldchevytrucks.com/blog/index.php/2010/02/motor-oil-in-old-engines/


If you remain unconvinced, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

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Case Nutty 1660

11-18-2018 06:29:43




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to Dakota Wilson, 11-16-2018 13:09:17  
I am sure I will get slammed but I have been running HD 15-40wt dsl oil in all of my Case compacts and Every other piece of equipment I run up to a 300 hp Case 2670 for the last 30 years with zero issues,, year around in all equipment, I use the same oil in the hydraulic system in the compacts, I only use Case HD oil, I have over 35 machines I use all the time and another 75 or more I own,, many thousands of hours of run time using it, to me to use a cheap oil is no savings at all and costs money but again this is what I have found from running equipment for the last 45 plus years of my own,, our temps here run from 110 in the summer to -50 below in the winters

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MNGB

11-17-2018 16:47:10




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to Dakota Wilson, 11-16-2018 13:09:17  
First off where are you finding non-detergent oil?? not easy and why on earth would someone use it (only time to use it is a new OH'd engine to aid break-in). 2nd detergent oil do not have scrubbing bubble in it to clean the engine (the term detergent is a marketing phrase to make people think its scrubbing the engien) in reality it has additive to keep carbon and ash particle in suspension so they don't settle out forming sludge in the oil pan.
I use a full synthetic oil in my Kohlers and Briggs engine they do not smoke use oil or leak oil as the urban legends say will happen

GB in MN

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dhermesc

12-04-2018 13:53:09




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to MNGB, 11-17-2018 16:47:10  
Agreed - why would anyone use nondetergent oil in the year 2018? Why would they be using nondetergent oil in 1998?

And if you could clean an engine in a matter of hours (or less) using detergentated oil do so immediately - then change the oil and refill with clean oil in the freshly cleaned crankcase. Its two or three whole dollars to change the oil in a mower.



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tom arnold

12-04-2018 20:20:54




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to dhermesc, 12-04-2018 13:53:09  
dhermesc........... for many, many years, the manufacturers of air cooled engines SPECIFIED non-detergent oils to protect their product. These engines were all splash-lubed and therefore oil filtration was not possible. Instead, they told the owner/users to change they oil every 10 or 20 hours of use so that the bulk of the contaminants would flushed out of the engine and clean oil would prevail. However, that procedure did not stop varnishes, soot and other contaminants from sticking to the engine block and other components, often building up a coating that would continue to grow in size.

When some well-meaning but highly mis-informed individual comes along and decides to switch over to a detergent based oil, that coating begins to dissolve and quickly contaminate the clean detergent oil with engine killing particulate. That is WHY owners continue to use NON-detergent oils in 2018. Even consecutive oil changes will not remove all of that contamination. The only answer is to tear the engine down and boil all of the parts ( block, oil pan, crankshaft, camshaft, gears etc) to make them perfectly clean. ONLY at that point can one safely use a detergent base oil. Even then, the frequency of the oil changes should be shortened because the detergent oil will keep the particulate in suspension until the drain plug is removed. YOU vastly underestimate how long it would take detergent oil to scrupulously clean an old air cooled, splash-lubed engine. There are many types of oils out there......FOR A REASON. There is place for detergent based oils and there is also a place for NON-detergent based oils.......even in 2018.

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Bob

11-17-2018 11:23:04




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to Dakota Wilson, 11-16-2018 13:09:17  
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LOL!, Oh, GOOD LORD!

Yep, gonna tear them big ball main bearings all to heck! And QUICKLY!



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Bob

11-17-2018 09:06:10




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to Dakota Wilson, 11-16-2018 13:09:17  
NOT wanting to cause any rapid heartbeats, bulging neck veins, or strokes here, but Mobil 1 synthetic works very well in air cooled CPE engines for cccold (or HOT) seasons.



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tom arnold

11-17-2018 11:14:31




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to Bob, 11-17-2018 09:06:10  
Well Bob......... if you choose to use a synthetic oil in your air cooled engine that has no oil filter, then best of luck to you ......IF you have been running a non-detergent oil in that engine for many years. More often than not, the entire internals of that engine will be coated with a sludge and the detergents will quickly begin to dissolve that sludge, thus contaminating the oil within hours of use. As a result, gritty oil will find its way into the main bearing/s and the crankshaft end bearing, quickly destroying them. The same holds true for the camshaft bearings plus the wear and tear on the cam lobes and the lifters. The cylinder wall/s will also be scored badly as a result of this abrasive lubricant being splashed on it, stroke after stroke. Rapid heartbeats, bulging neck veins or strokes might occur when the person taking your advice finds out WHY his engine is destroyed.

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wisbaker

12-09-2018 13:06:05




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to tom arnold, 11-17-2018 11:14:31  
Gee for the B&S Intek on my snowblower B&S recommends synthetic oil, seen a few folks who didn't observe the manufacturer's recommendation have problems with sticking valves.



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timcasbolt

11-17-2018 05:08:58




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to Dakota Wilson, 11-16-2018 13:09:17  
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Where would a person go to buy 10w oil?



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tom arnold

11-17-2018 05:47:17




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to timcasbolt, 11-17-2018 05:08:58  
Find a local Kendall Oil dealer. Kendall still markets this grade but so do other companies. It is just a matter of looking.



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tom arnold

11-17-2018 05:52:56




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to tom arnold, 11-17-2018 05:47:17  
Check with Walmart. They have been known to carry it. The problem here is.........if you have been running a NON-DETERGENT oil normally, then installing a DETERGENT based oil such as 10W30 will loosen all of the crud that is currently sticking to the engine internals and mixing it into the oil. THAT.....can create an engine killing formula.



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tom arnold

11-16-2018 22:41:44




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 Re: Motor oil in reply to Dakota Wilson, 11-16-2018 13:09:17  
Based on your post, I would choose 15W30.. You could also go with a straight #10 oil providing you keep a close eye on the dipstick level. Ten weight has a tendency to burn quicker than the straight thirty weight you should be using during the summer.. You can also go to Kohler dot com and find the Operator Manuals for the K-Series engines and read what the factory recommends.



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