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Fordson Tractors Discussion Forum

Simms oddball inj pump

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paulchace

12-06-2020 06:38:12




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so far, I have been unable to find any inj pump like mine. Simms SPE4A70S380
ANYBODY KNOW WHERE I CAN GET INFORMATION ON IT??
It does not have the lift pump attached to it the lift pump is separate and before the single filter element
Thanks!!




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grhuck

12-07-2020 10:46:39




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to paulchace, 12-06-2020 06:38:12  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

It looks lilke the plungers are free. If so that's good news. Everything you see inside that side cover is expensive and may be hard to find.
You could still have a bad pump but at least its not a catastrophy.

Before doing anything else you should make sure you have good flow to the pump. When you crank the engine you should get good positive, bubble free flow from line connecting the supply pump to the inj pump? (the small pump on the engine block that pumps fuel from the tank to inj pump).

Its likely theres something restricting the flow of fuel from the tank to the inj pump. If so address that before spending money on the Simms pump.

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grhuck

12-07-2020 09:19:31




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to paulchace, 12-06-2020 06:38:12  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

That injection pump requires oil in the bottom end, where the camshaft rotates (@ 1/2 engine speed) to lift the plungers to pressurize the fuel.

It also requires oil splashed up into the front of the pump where the governor is so that the governor can move the rack which controls metering.
A Minimec pump is "sump lubricated". That is to say a specific amount of lube oil is poured into the pump for lubrication of the cam/gov. The lower portion of the pump "cam chamber" is serpate from the upper part of the fuel where the plungers are charged, "fuel galley".

While this is not a Minimec pump I'm pretty sure it's sump lubricated.

From the pic here I can see what looks like an oil line that is used for oil overflow should the pump be overfilled or if the pumping plungers begin to leak fuel into the cam chamber.

I've never seen nor heard of a Simms injection pump on a Ford tractor that WAS NOT sump lubricated!

Almost all the Ford Simms pumps we see here have failed because the pump's oil was never changed or topped off. Most tractor owners never knew their pump required that kind of maintenence.
Take the side cover off and make sure the plunger lift up and down as the engine is cranked over. If the pump is bad shape the plunger may all be stuck at the top of their travel and are not pumping.

Also see you can make the rack move be moving the throttle and shut-off levers. If the rack or plunger are stuck theres your problem.

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Majorman

12-06-2020 09:10:58




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to paulchace, 12-06-2020 06:38:12  
Sorry but your picture is not very clear due to the flash reflection. Could you please tell us what tractor/machine the pump is on.



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Paul Chace

12-06-2020 18:40:47




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to Majorman, 12-06-2020 09:10:58  
FSM 1962 with ford 712 loader and 713/723 backhoe
turn over, no start yet
tried to purge air from inj lines, no start
some fuel weeping thru exh pipe, grey smoke
perhaps diaphragm in governor leaking??
check timing on pump to engine??



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Majorman

12-07-2020 00:46:42




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to Paul Chace, 12-06-2020 18:40:47  
That looks a slightly odd pump on a Super, from your picture it could be an early one or one from a truck, however, if it pumps diesel .....

White/grey smoke means fuel is getting to the cylinders, I doubt the diaphragm is going to give you a problem as when they fail, the engine tend to run rough or rev too fast.

Have you had the pump off? Have you checked the timing and the drive coupling to the pump? Timing will only go out if the coupling fails or the bolts holding the drive gear in the timing cover break.

In the centre of the pivot on the stop control is an excess fuel button, have you pushed that in and tried to start?

If you have a good flow of fuel to the pump and little coming from the injector pipes it is possible your pump rack that meters the fuel, is stuck. Remove the bolts around the plate on the side of the pump and work the rack with a screw driver, it should move with a bit of spring pressure then spring back. A good squirt of easing oil or Automatic Transmission Fluid in there will be good. The plate looks as if it has been off in the past as it is upside down. I use about a pint of ATF per 15 gallons in my diesel a few times a year to help with pump lubrication.

Failing all this, try some starting fluid in the air intake but do not use too much. Another way is to remove the air cleaner pipe at the manifold and hold a burning rag over it as you try to start, do not let the rag get drawn into the engine though. You could also use a gas torch or blow lamp.

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paulchace

12-07-2020 08:13:29




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to Majorman, 12-07-2020 00:46:42  
Near as I can tell it's March 1961 when it was built. Is that pump the style of pump where you have to change the oil? If that is true perhaps the previous owner did not do that and the plungers are worn out I was getting some pretty good squirts of diesel yesterday during the priming operation my wife and I were engaged in and I gave it a blast of starting fluid three four times after I felt like I had some good fuel flow to the injectors still no start. I did push the over fuel button in it doesn't really stay in by itself so much but I'll keep trying when I get back to it I'm going to check the timing make sure it's right and check the bolts on the coupling and see if I can hook up a block heater get it nice and warm to help the spinning business. Thank you very much for your help I appreciate your knowledge and you willingness to jump out there and help me

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SkipperII

12-09-2020 08:57:54




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to paulchace, 12-07-2020 08:13:29  
Very strange that it won't fire on starting fluid, because you have taken the fuel system out of play. What led up to this problem? Majors, if the engine is in decent condition, and in time, with good fuel, will normally fire if you look at them cross-eyed. Has the pump been off? Was it running, and quit? Is this a barn find?



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paulchace

12-10-2020 15:27:06




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to SkipperII, 12-09-2020 08:57:54  
Thank you for the comeback, I don't believe I'm getting the straight story on this tractor. The fuel smells old so I'm going to change that. I did remove the fuel filter bowl dump out the old fuel and replace it with new fuel but I realized that's not enough. The cover for the injection pump was upside down and no gasket. Somebody's curious little fingers have been in there and I don't know what they did. The story goes the injectors were done and the injection pump was done but that could have been about 2 years ago and I don't know for sure if the tractor has moved since then. I'm going to get a new filter and fresh fuel and try again this weekend. I only have 15 more years and then I may be too old and too tired to fuss with this thing, thanks again

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Majorman

12-07-2020 08:39:55




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to paulchace, 12-07-2020 08:13:29  
No, there is no oil in that pump it uses diesel to lubricate all the important parts. Even the Minimec, which has oil in it, is diesel lubricated and only uses oil in the mechanical governor.

ATF in the diesel can help to replace the lubricants removed from modern diesel, like the sulphur.

If your excess fuel button does not stay in, that points to a sticking or stuck rack.

This is a standard style pump although the button is missing on the excess fuel shaft.

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Majorman

12-07-2020 09:06:43




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to Majorman, 12-07-2020 08:39:55  

This will give you some idea about what you see when you take the side plate off. You should be able to move the rack with a screw driver.



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paulchace

12-07-2020 09:40:18




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to Majorman, 12-07-2020 09:06:43  


Thank you for the come back I took the side plate off yesterday and was able to work the rack back-and-forth without any issue here are some pictures that I took while I have a cover off little bit of rust here in there

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Majorman

12-07-2020 14:25:42




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to paulchace, 12-07-2020 09:40:18  
Looks a little dry in there so splash plenty of ATF around. I worked in a Ford approved diesel shop as part of my apprenticeship on those pumps. The only time oil is put in the cambox is when it is put in storage or in a situation like you have. Once you get her running any oil will dilute with diesel and will drain out through the pigtail tube so diesel will find its own level in the lower part of the pump.

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paulchace

12-12-2020 13:10:06




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to Majorman, 12-07-2020 14:25:42  
Sorry. 110496 ??



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paulchace

12-12-2020 13:08:35




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to Majorman, 12-07-2020 14:25:42  
Got her runnin today
Had to hit it with start fluid a few times
Hydr pump For loader/hoe leakin like mad
Anybody know seal # ???
414096 ?



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JRG1

12-17-2020 17:27:30




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 Re: Simms oddball inj pump in reply to paulchace, 12-12-2020 13:08:35  
Sorry if i am butting in but I have a 1954 Fordson Major Diesel Tractor(same as above) with a similar fuel related problem. I mistakenly put petrol in the fuel tank while working in a dark shed. The engine had run perfectly well up until this point. Following this it ran ok for 20 min or so until the petrol mix reached the cylinders then stopped. Started ok but revved and backfired etc. I realised the problem and completely drained the fuel tank (fuel cock fully open)plus both cannister and injector pump (Simms) and connecting pipe work and replaced with clean diesel. Tractor now startrs ok but revs uncontrolably .Throttle leaver fully up (vertical) makes no difference. Only way I can control the revs is to starve the motor of fuel using the cut off leaver at the back of the injector pump. I have run the engine for half an hour or more using this to control its revs in an attempt to remove all traces of petrol from the system. However it still revs uncontrollably and backfires occasionally unless starved of fuel. I have checked the butterfly on the air intake from the air cleaner and this seems to be closing ok. I do not like to disassemble the simms injector pump for fear of upsetting the settings. Can anyone suggest my best course af action please? Cheers, JRG1

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