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Fordson Tractors Discussion Forum

Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!!

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Shep1

12-01-2019 18:13:37




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As the topic states I have found that I have fuel in the oil pan.

Here is what I know. This old girl has a lot of "blow by"..and I mean a lot..there is so much crankcase pressure that oil weeps out from under the valve cover gasket, it has black, wet soot that blows out of a leak in the exhaust manifold connection to the tail pipe..

When I hold my hand over the valve cover hole where I add oil..the blow-by pushes my hand off. So, I know she has some issues with rings I guess.

I have tried Bardal engine stuff that may can "help" with blow-by but still has smoke and blow-by. Now I will say that she gets up to temp, the smoke does diminish, but is still there.

Power? This old girl will throw you out od the saddle in you are not hanging on so..Power You betcha!

Ok, so now this brings me to the title of this thread. Can this engine..(ring?..issue).. cause diesel to go by the rings and into the crankcase?

When I drained the crankcase I collected almost 5 gallons of diluted oil..

Input from Deutz Lover and Majorman on another thread I posted has suggested a possible leak from the Simms pump into the crankcase..

So, I have studied my tractor manual but it doesn't break down the pump into that level of detail as far as what type of seal may be worn and even if I can get a replacement...

Any thoughts and wisdom greatly appreciated!!

Shep

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Brown Dirt Cowboy

12-13-2019 14:34:19




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
after thinking about it I think he went by ShepFl. thanks for the reply.



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Shep1

12-13-2019 07:37:35




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Nope..Been in Miss. all along..



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Brown Dirt Cowboy

12-12-2019 20:42:22




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Shep1, did you at one time live in Fl?



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Shep1

12-11-2019 10:25:34




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
The PO must have hit something hard to crush the end of this tube and how did he not see any problems?



My combustion plate should be here today but in any case I feel we can close this thread as "SOLVED"....

Thanks again to all! What a group!

Shep



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Deutz Lover

12-09-2019 09:32:24




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Shep1,

It is great that you found the definitive cause of the crankcase pressure.

You have persevered.



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Shep1

12-09-2019 06:43:09




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
When I cleaned the engine, I only took the water and the thermostat housing off..everything else I de-greased and painted.

So, I found the reason for so much blow-by. I had checked the valve cover breather last week by holding my hand under it and it was fairly forceful.

So, while I had the valve cover removed I decided to get my lips dirty and actually blow into the breather pipe that went down to about the bottom of the oil pan..sure enough I could tell my breath was being constricted.

I couldn't get the stupid pipe from around the started but I did manage to get it to where I could poke up into it..but didn't have to...the PO must have hit a stump or something because the end was pinched pretty good.
I put the valve cover back on and went for a spin and NO OIL COMING OUT OT THE DIP STICK HOLE!!

On top of that, once she got warm I am not seeing anymore blue smoke from the exhaust ...

So, when my combustion plate comes in from YT I will replace it and this old girl will be going strong again.

Thanks again for you guys taking the time out of your day to help this old geezer get this piece of history working again.

I just love old tractors!!

Shep

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Deutz Lover

12-07-2019 18:32:39




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Shep1,

While it is more than likely the rings are worn, there is a possible contributing factor. If the exhaust valve guides are worn and there is sufficent back pressure, exhaust gases can travel up the valve guides causing additional pressure in the crankcase.



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Majorman

12-08-2019 01:36:23




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Deutz Lover, 12-07-2019 18:32:39  
Glad you have got her up and running. I would agree that ring wear and guide wear could be contributing to your problem but I would not rush into an engine overhaul just yet.

You have had diesel in the sump mixing with the oil which has thinned it down and washed all the carbon from rings and bores, what it has not washed off it has softened. Running the engine at tickover is going to make the problem worse. You need to give her hard work, diesels should either be run at full load or switched off, that was what my mentors always said and it is very true. Oil slobber is common on any make of diesel engine that is not used under load no matter how many hours it has done and if you put in new rings, pistons and new bores it will still blow by and slobber from the exhaust if not worked hard. Hard work will clear the soft oily carbon and give you a good "carbon seal" around the top of the bores and around the pre-combustion chamber caps. I would put her into work for a year, switch her off when not using her rather than leave her ticking over and see what happens. I could be wrong but you could see a major improvement.

Back in the day we had a large farming company locally who ran thirty or forty Dextas on their operation. When the sugar beet planting and hoeing season came round, we started to get complaints of slobber and blow by but they always disappeared when the tractors were used on harrows, cultivators and ploughs.

Brian

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Shep1

12-07-2019 18:20:06




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
True..I could actually feel the "dimple" when I ran my finger across it...so, I found some really good metal seal kinda like JB Weld but can take 4500 PSI so I put some on the dimpled area and just like one would do when using Bondo..I just sanded it down until the dimple was gone..used my micro torch and heated the whole thing and gently slid the plate back on.

So, to shorten this I did get her cranked because the plate seal was 95% sealed with just a "bit" coming out..and as the head came up to temp the leakage mostly stopped and she ran like a Singer sewing machine..AGAIN! Yea baby!! /

When she gets cold..that plate will still leak a bit..but she will crank. I rode around the lower 40 for a bit and all was well...

Well, almost.......I think Majorman was on it because she was running fine when I moved her down to lower 40 for the winter..so she sat still for maybe 3-4 months when I decided I needed to put the box blade on her..then all of this happened, and after I saw the inside of the injector pump..I agree..the plungers were not happy..

Anyway guys...She will crank with a good battery..but I still have a major issue...the damn blow-by..

It is so bad that oil will actually come out of the dipstick hole and trickle to the ground.
I put the tach on 1200 rpms and let her idle at this setting for 25 minutes or so...then I put a towel in front of the radiator to get her up as hot as I could which was only ..maybe ..170 degrees..anyway...I probably lost a cup of oil while this idling took place...and that loss was coming out of the dip-stick hole.

I have a pressure gauge where the pressure gauge sender should be and it shows 60 psi when at the 1200 rpm...

So,thanks to all that have contributed to this thread, we can put the issue to bed...The glow plug fuel feed was the culprit...because I do not have any fuel in the oil pan now.

What baffles me is how much power this tractor has considering how much blowby it has..anyway..thanks guys for helping me out on this..

Shep

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Deutz Lover

12-06-2019 18:03:10




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Shep1,

I guess my first question is when did the Dexta last run properly?

After looking at your "before" pictures of the plunger/barrel assemblies I think you were lucky that it ran at all. As dirty as it was in there you might suspect some water may have gotten into the injectors and nozzles. That junk had to have gotten in from somewhere.

You know that at least one of the injectors is working because of the spray from the combustion cap leak.
It is possible that one or more of the injector nozzles has become plugged or partially blocked even though you bled the lines to the injectors. Have you ever removed the injectors?

Since you have not removed the injection pump it is doubful the pump timing has changed and the diesel stop lever on the pump is returning to its run postion and is not stuck right?

Have you removed the valve cover to make sure all of the valves are moving?

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Shep1

12-06-2019 17:29:27




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Thanks you 2 guys for chiming in...So, First I have never used ether on this baby and will never so lets put that to rest..I understood the PO did, but after I went through her she would crank without anything except a good battery! So, My worries about the ether although were well founded...it seems that she may not have suffered any long term damage..

This combustion plate thing is driving me CRAZY!! I have maybe 6 new copper gaskets on hand and I have yet to get this leak to stop.

I read about annealing the copper gasket which I did and that didn't work!

Ok, so the attached photo will show a small patch of where the fuel is coming from so..As best I can tell..But what sets my hair on fire is that this did not manifest itself until months of her running great and cranking with only a few turns of the starter...

Anyway, thanks to YT parts I have a replacement combustion chamber plate in transit..so, Jeeez..we will see when it comes in what happens...

Ok, guys,,the question for now is should she crank with this leakage? She is not even trying to come back to life while cranking..I have confirmed all 3 injectors have been bled ..





Thanks guys!

Shep

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SkipperII

12-07-2019 06:25:20




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-06-2019 17:29:27  
It appears that the surface may be pitted (right side of picture). If so, I would recommend laying emery cloth on a pane of glass, or other surface that you know is flat, and sand the face until you have a consistent surface.



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Deutz Lover

12-06-2019 15:31:49




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Majorman,

If Shep1 is not able to get the Dexta started is it safe to loosen one injector at a time to check for diesel misting? I know it does not verify that the spray pattern is correct. I just wanted to know if it could be used as a diagnostic procedure.



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Majorman

12-07-2019 00:30:39




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Deutz Lover, 12-06-2019 15:31:49  
That would be fine DL. Reading back, I get the feeling that the tractor was running OK until it was stood up. Water in the injection pump probably caused the plungers to stick and, even if they are moving now, water/rust on the plunges can cause a lot of damage. We are talking very fine tolerances in there and damage can occur within a few days.

My priority would be to get it running then you would find that the pre-
combustion chamber leaks would possibly disappear. Coupled with a bit of hard work to get the carbon and gunge out of the system.

If someone has been using ether it is also possible that there are internal problems.

What are the chances of a tow start? If she is misting diesel out of the chambers she is obviously not firing and a tow might just be enough to build up compression and start her off. I would also try a whiff of ether just to get her running again.

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Majorman

12-07-2019 00:37:16




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Majorman, 12-07-2019 00:30:39  
Just noticed another point, Shep, have you had it running since you stripped the engine down? You may need oil in the bores if not as they dry out and will not build compression.



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Deutz Lover

12-06-2019 15:25:46




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Shep1,

Other than the Dexta not starting most is great news. At least you now that one injector is working from the spray.
The reason I asked about your location was I wanted to see at what temperatures you were dealing with when cranking the Dexta.

Mine had little problem cranking in Southeastern Georgia most of the time, but cranking speed appears to be important on these. I replaced my primer pump/fuel tap with a straight tap since I did not need the glow plug and thus avoided problems with fuel leaks into the intake.

One reason these break piston grooves with ether is that the top ring lands are not steel as on the ford diesels like the 3000 and 4000. I have noted that most people use too much ether when trying to start a cold diesel. I have taken Majorman's advice and now avoid ether when starting any diesel. I just make sure the battery is fully charged and the starter is in good order and not dragging.

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Shep1

12-05-2019 07:55:03




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
n
Ok here is the latest. I left the drain plug out of the oil pan with a bucket under it to see if any dye colored oil would show .

The next evening I found maybe a cup of dyed fuel with a soot color to it also. Crap! So, after some fine wine..I decided that I could have residual fuel in the crankcase, so I left the bucket there another day. So, last night I looked into the bucket and it was just a tad of oil so I was right and that residual fuel just had to drain out.

So, I put a new oil filter in and new oil. Sprayed the injector pump springs, etc and put the plate back on the injector pump and decided to crank the old girl before it got too dark.

Well, crap again..no joy..the system has been bled really good, so what now?

As I was cranking I notice puffs of really fine mist coming out of "somewhere" around the pump area. Its dark now so I got a work light and saw that the plate that between the exhaust ports was spewing diesel. (really fine mist)

So, what does this plate cover and is there suppose to be fuel in there and since it is leaking could that keep the engine from cranking?

Lastly, to DL..I'm in east central Mississippi.

Another shot the "Beast"..It was sold to me as an "English Ford 3000"..It had turn signals, etc at one time. I completely broke it down, had the engine rebuilt, new clutch and sanded and repainted it..back in 1992. After I get through with "Glenda" I'm gonna clean put another paint job on it and repair a couple of greasy spots. I call it the Beast because of the pure power it has for such and old tractor..

Thanks,

Shep

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Majorman

12-05-2019 08:49:53




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-05-2019 07:55:03  
What you have is a leak on the pre-combustion chamber covers, they can be s-ds to seal at times. there is only a thin copper gasket and you have to make sure the surfaces are clean. You will get a mist of diesel because that is where the injectors squirt into. Once she is running you will see a little smoke.

I would get her started and warmed up then go around the three studs and see if you can get them a bit tighter and seal the leak before stripping the plate off. If that fails, take the plate off and clean both surfaces well before reassembly. New gaskets/copper seals are readily available from any Massey Ferguson (spit spit) dealer as the MF 35 and 135 use a similar engine.

You may not get her to start easily if the glow plug and fuel primer in the tap is not working. Diesel sprayed on to the glow plug burns and causes a flame in the intake manifold which is drawn into the cylinders and fires her up. In some cases you can get away with not having this system working in hot climates, but for me, any indirect injection engine like the Dexta needs either glow plugs in every cylinder or the flame in the manifold. Working on early Perkins engines, on which the Dexta engine is based, on cold mornings we would hold a burning diesel-soaked rag over the open inlet manifold to get them to fire up.

40 seconds on the heater, two pumps on the primer, listen for a "pop" in the manifold then hit the starter and away she will go.

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Deutz Lover

12-03-2019 20:35:33




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Shep1,

Is your other beast a 3000 or possibly a 4000SU? I cannot tell from the pic angles.



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Deutz Lover

12-03-2019 20:21:19




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Shep1,

Where are you located? State or part of the country.



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Shep1

12-02-2019 19:16:56




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Thanks...new muffler with new exhaust pipes...the PO elected to put the exhaust out the top, but thanks goodness he didn't put a hole in the bonnet!

So, I am putting it back as it was originally..

thanks again!

Shep



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Deutz Lover

12-02-2019 18:57:33




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
I believe that Derwen1959 is in the UK and therefore silencer refers to a muffler.



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Shep1

12-02-2019 18:22:49




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
I had the glow plug out on the test bench to make sure it functioned. Other than that, do I need to do anything else to it?
Also, I am not familiar with the "silencer" you referenced, can you pls help me out with that?

Thanks!



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Deutz Lover

12-02-2019 18:21:38




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
I like the Dexta because it has a draw bar rating of over 4000 pounds and a three point hitch rating of 2000 lbs.



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derwen1959

12-02-2019 18:15:06




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
You should fit new glow plug as well as cleaning air
Filter and fit new silencer as this one will be restricted as full of crap



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Shep1

12-02-2019 18:13:29




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Yep the breather is clear..however, I can't say how clear. So, thanks to your input I will be sure to be certain it is breathing as it should...the PO didn't take very good care of this fine tractor..



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Shep1

12-02-2019 18:08:51




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Yes sir..I totally removed the air cleaner assembly, (when I got it home it was a mess)..put it in my blast cabinet, de-greaser bath and cleaned the mesh until I could eat off of it... The new thermostat I purchased looked just like any one I would buy for my '87 hunting truck but when I compared it to the one that was in the housing there was a huge difference. So, I put the "original" in water on the stove and watched it open and actually got a good reading from my spot radiometer (Ir-thermometer) and I think I remember it opening around 165 or was that the inside temp of the chicken I cooked this past weekend.??.can't remember exactly but I did chose to keep the original in it because it looked like no other thermostat I have ever seen..so according to the new temp gauge it tracks really good. Also, put in a new water pump while I was at it..

Thanks for your input!

BTW..yep...purchased most of my parts so far from YT online..can't beat them!!

Air breather when I first got her home..

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Shep1

12-02-2019 17:53:16




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
I think you nailed it..When I took the line loose there was such a drip that I had to raise the line up until the drip stopped. So, I feel this is going to be my problem.

I replaced the fuel shutoff valve that contained a new pump when I rebuilt the fuel tank, but apparently the new pump is letting fuel leak by. Jeeez....who woulda thunk! (not me)

So, it is going to be a few days before I can get oil back in give the old girl a go..so I will report back in a few days after I have a really good idea that this is fixed.

So, going to post a couple of pics of my other "beast", that is my main squeeze...





Yep..I'm a Ford man alright! "Glenda (Dexta) when I first brought her home..



Giving the Old girl a face lift..Next spring I hope to finish!

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derwen1959

12-02-2019 17:42:33




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Ok. I should have read all. Comments
First has the thermostat been removed from cooling system as the symptoms do suggest engine is running too cold also have you cleaned air filter and
Not just cleaned mesh and renewed oil but clean pre cleaner on top and pipe down middle also
Is the breather pipe on rocker cover clear??



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Shep1

12-02-2019 08:56:54




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Thanks Majorman and yes it does have this feature. So, I will either cap it off or construct a shutoff valve on it.

Any idea how often these pump seal go bad? I have searched and searched but can't find any forum that someone has had this particular issue. I'm hoping the glow plug arrangement will give me some relief.

thanks!

Shep



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Deutz Lover

12-02-2019 07:34:24




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Shep1 reported earlier that he has checked the new lift pump and there are not leaks from the diaphragm.



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derwen1959

12-02-2019 06:58:45




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Have you checked lift pump for leaking diaphragm?



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Deutz Lover

12-02-2019 05:08:23




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Majorman,

I must have been receiving you thought transmissions last night.

I was thinking that this was the only remaining possible source of diesel fuel getting into the engine. Is it possible that that there is something wrong with this primer button so that engine vacuum can draw unwanted diesel into the intake manifold?



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Majorman

12-02-2019 09:13:14




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Deutz Lover, 12-02-2019 05:08:23  
Yes, in models after July 1963 a tap was fitted as standard on the manifold. I have come up against a similar problem two or three times but in those cases the engine "hydrauliced" when trying to start. We fitted a lot of taps after that.



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Majorman

12-02-2019 01:22:28




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Has your tractor got a pre heater in the manifold with a pipe going to the fuel tap? If so, put a small on/off tap in this line and only use it when you use the heater to start on a cold morning. This was the Fordson answer and was fitted as standard to all later build tractors. The engine draws the extra diesel into it through this pipe.

The only place diesel can get into the engine on a Dexta is the injection pump seal or the heater/cold start pipe. Leak off pipes are external.

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Deutz Lover

12-01-2019 19:15:08




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
It is possible that the black wet coming out of the exhaust is diesel slobber. It happens when diesels idle too long or is a sign of worn rings. Look diesel slobber up. It is a valid term.



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Shep1

12-01-2019 18:49:38




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
I put just a few gallons of "off-road diesel" in the tank a couple of days ago to take advantage of the dye used in it to possibly assist us with finding the pathway of fuel into the crankcase.

I had changed the oil , maybe 3 months ago, to the proper level so the almost 5 gallons of oil/diesel I drained had to have happened after I had a new oil change.

So, I left a drain bucket under the oil pan to watch for any dyed fuel to weep into the crankcase..so after 2 days of sitting there..no sign of any fuel into the bucket...

Ok, this makes me think that whatever leak there may be must be happening while the motor is running.
So, yes, I will buy some inexpensive 30 wt oil and give it a go after performing the other suggestions you have provided.

Will report back in a few days.

Thanks,

Shep

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Deutz Lover

12-01-2019 18:31:52




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Shep1
I forgot this where I finished up the original post. Before you do anything else fill the crankcase with the proper level of oil. It is a lot cheaper to replace than bearings and pistons. After you do this complete the list of other things I suggested.

Also if it had five gallons of oil/diesel this will cause blowby past the rings and can also blow a head gasket.



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Shep1

12-01-2019 18:29:40




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 Re: Fordson Dexta Has Diesel in the Oil Pan!!!!!! in reply to Shep1, 12-01-2019 18:13:37  
Here is the link to where this discussion got started but kinda got involved with the injector pump hijacking the thread..

https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?p=9229892#9229892

You guys on here a great and what a knowledge base for new owners of the great tractors...

Shep



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