Help with 1841 starter

Hi,
I have an 1841 diesel tractor that's been sitting awhile. It has a 12 volt generator. Several years ago it just stopped turning over due to some electrical issue I couldn't solve. I replaced the solenoid back then with no effect. I originally got this just as a donor engine for another tractor. There were other priorities so it just sat till now.
So today, I tried jumping the starter directly with the battery. I connected the positive jumper to the only single large wire terminal on the starter body, then touched the negative jumper to a ground on the tractor body. There were sparks and the starter did not even try to turn or make a noise. Am I doing this wrong? I noticed afterwards that the threaded stud on the starter body (where the cable wire connects) was also in contact with the starter body via metal washers that overlapped onto the body. So maybe I should have connected the battery negative side to the starter terminal?
I thought this had to be a negative ground since its a 12v diesel, but maybe I am wrong about that. The wire from the starter runs to the solenoid. When it failed to start today, I disconnected the wire to the starter as shown in the pic. I also bent the copper stud a bit when trying to remove the nuts. I tried bending it back as best as possible. I have not tried jumping it a second time as yet.

When I could not get it to turnover years ago, I had the starter removed and checked at a starter shop and it checked out fine. Maybe there was an insulated grommet on that starter stud that I didn't re-install, I just don't remember. Obviously my electrical knowledge is embarassingly poor, so if someone might have a suggestion on what I am screwing up, I would be grateful!
Thanks

The stud needs to be isolated from the body. Positive to stud is ok. Starters typically dont care about polarity, so neg there would be fine too. That does not mean you are grounding there, it just mean polarity is reversed. Again, starters don't typically care and will turn in the same direction irregardless of polarity.

Thanks Jimtrs. Your comments got me to look at the New Holland parts list for the starter and I see that I am missing the rubber washer field insulator. Simple fix for a change (fingers crossed!).

When you post "turnover" do you mean crank or run?

(quoted from post at 20:12:30 01/18/23)

When you post "turnover" do you mean crank or run?

Click to expand...

When you say "crank", do you mean that the starter turns the engine and it starts, or that the starter turns the engine and it doesn't start??? About half of the folks on here use the term crank to mean that the starter turns the engine and it doesn't start, while the other half use it to mean that it turns the engine and it does start.

The starter turning the engine is a very exact bit of information, and the engine starting is another. Phrases like "cranks" and "turns over" are vague and don't necessarily mean the same thing from one person to the next.

(quoted from post at 19:49:30 01/18/23)

(quoted from post at 20:12:30 01/18/23)

When you post "turnover" do you mean crank or run?

Click to expand...

When you say "crank", do you mean that the starter turns the engine and it starts, or that the starter turns the engine and it doesn't start??? About half of the folks on here use the term crank to mean that the starter turns the engine and it doesn't start, while the other half use it to mean that it turns the engine and it does start.

The starter turning the engine is a very exact bit of information, and the engine starting is another. Phrases like "cranks" and "turns over" are vague and don't necessarily mean the same thing from one person to the next.

Click to expand...

Well Sean, I have yet to see anyone have a problem with the word crank. Everyone that uses it uses it, uses it the same. They are saying that the starter is being operated, and then as you say the engine starts or it doesn't. Absolutely plain. No possible difference.

(quoted from post at 08:10:45 01/19/23)

(quoted from post at 19:49:30 01/18/23)

(quoted from post at 20:12:30 01/18/23)

When you post "turnover" do you mean crank or run?

Click to expand...

When you say "crank", do you mean that the starter turns the engine and it starts, or that the starter turns the engine and it doesn't start??? About half of the folks on here use the term crank to mean that the starter turns the engine and it doesn't start, while the other half use it to mean that it turns the engine and it does start.

The starter turning the engine is a very exact bit of information, and the engine starting is another. Phrases like "cranks" and "turns over" are vague and don't necessarily mean the same thing from one person to the next.

Click to expand...

Well Sean, I have yet to see anyone have a problem with the word crank. Everyone that uses it uses it, uses it the same. They are saying that the starter is being operated, and then as you say the engine starts or it doesn't. Absolutely plain. No possible difference.

Click to expand...

I have seen several people on this forum use the term "crank" to mean that not only does the starter turn the engine, but that the engine also starts, while others use it to mean that the starter turns the engine but the engine does not start, but in both cases they do not actually specify whether it starts or not. They just say that it cranks, and after subsequent questions they might respond as to whether it starts or not.

(quoted from post at 14:21:26 01/19/23)

(quoted from post at 08:10:45 01/19/23)

(quoted from post at 19:49:30 01/18/23)

(quoted from post at 20:12:30 01/18/23)

When you post "turnover" do you mean crank or run?

Click to expand...

When you say "crank", do you mean that the starter turns the engine and it starts, or that the starter turns the engine and it doesn't start??? About half of the folks on here use the term crank to mean that the starter turns the engine and it doesn't start, while the other half use it to mean that it turns the engine and it does start.

The starter turning the engine is a very exact bit of information, and the engine starting is another. Phrases like "cranks" and "turns over" are vague and don't necessarily mean the same thing from one person to the next.

Click to expand...

Well Sean, I have yet to see anyone have a problem with the word crank. Everyone that uses it uses it, uses it the same. They are saying that the starter is being operated, and then as you say the engine starts or it doesn't. Absolutely plain. No possible difference.

Click to expand...

I have seen several people on this forum use the term "crank" to mean that not only does the starter turn the engine, but that the engine also starts, while others use it to mean that the starter turns the engine but the engine does not start, but in both cases they do not actually specify whether it starts or not. They just say that it cranks, and after subsequent questions they might respond as to whether it starts or not.

Click to expand...

OOOOOK....

When you post "turnover" do you mean crank or run?[/quote]

Hi Showcrop,

By "turnover", I mean just the starter motor would not turn the flywheel to start the engine.

After insulating that stud on the starter from the starter body, as mentioned ealier, the starter motor finally started to work.... barely. At least I'm happy the engine isn't stuck. I want to try and start it and get it running, but the starter is very weak. It can barely slowly turnover the engine and stops before going a full revolution... maybe at a compression point. I have to use a prybar to move the crankshaft pulley slightly past that point for the starter to work again. Obviously it won't start like this. I used a newly charged battery. I then tried jumping with the big Delco battery in my 1968 Ford 3600 diesel backhoe tractor, but did not improve the starter performance. I had been directly connecting the batttery positive to the stud on the starter, then connected the battery negative to the free end of the negative battery cable connected to the tractor battery box. I had removed and cleaned the contact surfaces at the battery box before doing this.

I also tried contacting battery negative to the metal casing of the starter motor, but did not work out any better.

I'm not sure what to do next other than remove the starter and have it checked (again). It sat for 5 years in the weather since it was last checked out. Maybe sitting in the weather has degraded its functionality. Or, maybe the engine is just gummed up, I don't know. I changed the fluids. Stupidly I put in 10w-40. I should have used a lighter oil for now. Also thinking of trying to disconnect the front loader hydraulic pump from the crankshaft hub to make it a little easier for the starter.'

I tried turning the engine by "push-starting" the tractor by putting it in gear, but the rear wheels won't budge in gear. Probably need a helper to pop the clutch while I pull it. It also has a Sherman... a hi-lo type I think. It might be locked up, I don't know. The lever is broken on the sherman so have to use a wrench. I haven't moved it since it last run so I don't think the lever is in position that would make push-starting difficult. But maybe I should double-check that. The clutch was shot on this tractor, but I didn't care since all I wanted was the diesel engine which ran well. It has the hydraulic front steering that was also shot, so making it a working tractor wasn't worth it.

(quoted from post at 17:56:41 01/19/23) When you post "turnover" do you mean crank or run?

Click to expand...

Hi Showcrop,

By "turnover", I mean just the starter motor would not turn the flywheel to start the engine.

After insulating that stud on the starter from the starter body, as mentioned ealier, the starter motor finally started to work.... barely. At least I'm happy the engine isn't stuck. I want to try and start it and get it running, but the starter is very weak. It can barely slowly turnover the engine and stops before going a full revolution... maybe at a compression point. I have to use a prybar to move the crankshaft pulley slightly past that point for the starter to work again. Obviously it won't start like this. I used a newly charged battery. I then tried jumping with the big Delco battery in my 1968 Ford 3600 diesel backhoe tractor, but did not improve the starter performance. I had been directly connecting the batttery positive to the stud on the starter, then connected the battery negative to the free end of the negative battery cable connected to the tractor battery box. I had removed and cleaned the contact surfaces at the battery box before doing this.

I also tried contacting battery negative to the metal casing of the starter motor, but did not work out any better.

I'm not sure what to do next other than remove the starter and have it checked (again). It sat for 5 years in the weather since it was last checked out. Maybe sitting in the weather has degraded its functionality. Or, maybe the engine is just gummed up, I don't know. I changed the fluids. Stupidly I put in 10w-40. I should have used a lighter oil for now. Also thinking of trying to disconnect the front loader hydraulic pump from the crankshaft hub to make it a little easier for the starter.'

I tried turning the engine by "push-starting" the tractor by putting it in gear, but the rear wheels won't budge in gear. Probably need a helper to pop the clutch while I pull it. It also has a Sherman... a hi-lo type I think. It might be locked up, I don't know. The lever is broken on the sherman so have to use a wrench. I haven't moved it since it last run so I don't think the lever is in position that would make push-starting difficult. But maybe I should double-check that. The clutch was shot on this tractor, but I didn't care since all I wanted was the diesel engine which ran well. It has the hydraulic front steering that was also shot, so making it a working tractor wasn't worth it.[/quote]


Electric motors generally won't run weakly. They are running full power or not at all unless the bushings are bad which you should be able to rule out because it is "freshly" rebuilt. The Sherman is after the clutch so it would not be suspect looking for resistance to cranking. 10W 40 oil is 10 weight when cold so it isn't suspect. The clutch could be a problem because some failures result in incomplete or no release, such as when some of the lining breaks loose and lodges between the clutch disc and the pressure plate. As you evaluate your options, even though the starter has little use since it was rebuilt, getting it checked again may be way easier than pulling some injectors to relieve compression, or pulling the engine where it sits.

2-piece early diesel crankshaft.

Still have a starter issue on this 1841 diesel tractor and wondering if anyone has suggestions what could be causing the slow cranking.

Since last posting, I swapped out the starter and replaced it with the starter from my 841 diesel tractor. I cleaned the starter and tractor surfaces that make contact, cleaned the cable connections. I also disconnected the front crankshaft pulley hub (and pulley) so the front hydraulic pump was out of the picture (as well as the waterpump and generator). But I could easily turn the hyd pump shaft by hand, so that apparently wasn't part of the problem.

After all that, this starter has the same problem as the original starter with very slow cranking of the engine. It barely turns maybe only a revolution per 5-7 seconds. If often stops turning. At one point the terminal on the starter began getting hot before I disconnected it. The battery is good. I used jumper cables from a fully charged battery on my Ford 3500 diesel (which cranks the 3500 no problem). I connected the battery cables directly to the starter: positive to the copper starter terminal, and negative to the negative battery cable on the 1841. Also tried connecting the negative to a clean spot on the loader frame, but yielded no improvement. When doing this, I did not have a separate battery in the 1841 battery box connected to anything. The power was only coming from the jumper cables from the 3500 battery.

Transmission is in neutral and the clutch has been blocked down for the last several years. PTO is disengaged. There is a sherman transmission that I'm not sure where it is set (the shifter arm is broken), but it used to start in the position where it is in. If the clutch pedal is blocked down, I wouldn't think the sherman shift position would make any difference as far as resistance to cranking the engine, unless having it non-running for several years caused a problem. But I had been starting it fairly regularly until it just quit cranking the engine one day. So maybe the problem isn't just from sitting for a time.

Pulling the injectors would not be my preferred next choice as that becomes a big project, but not sure what else to do. Any suggestions appreciated!

Unless you pull the injectors and verify the engine is free it's all a guessing game.
Sounds like there isn't a battery on this tractor and you're trying to start it with jumper cables from another vehicle. That puts a lot of connections and chances for a lot of lost current in the mix.