Ford 860 wont start/run suddenly

Shawnn

New User
This may get a little lengthy but I've done my best to research the forums and I've replaced several things and I'm no closer to fixing my tractor. I'm capable of replacing most parts on a tractor but diagnosing and electrical are not my strong suit. I have a feeling I'm dealing with an electrical problem but not sure.

My 1958 860 was 12 volt converted by a previous owner. It's been a good runner until recently. After a big snow storm in Minnesota I was moving snow for the better part of a day on and off. I took a break at one point and when I started the tractor the next time, it began running really rough, backfiring frequently. I did put some fresh gas in it just prior to starting but I'm skeptical I have bad gas, but I guess I can't rule that out.

I'm assuming it's electrical because I began looking into the electrical components and found several problems. First I replaced the spark plugs with autolite 437s and gapped to .025. They were quite dark with a bit of buildup and I believe gapped wrong at .030. Then I replaced the cap and rotor as well as sanded the contact point in the distributor. Everything seemed to be in working order with the distributor. The distributor definitely didn't move and I made sure the new cap was aligned correctly. Next, I replaced the plug wires. The old ones had a great deal of corrosion so I was hopeful this may have been part of the problem. When removing the coil plug from the coil, it was basically melted on the coil end with no signs of the crimp connector. Assuming the coil was fried, I replaced it with a 12v one from napa and also installed the corresponding resistor since I didn't get an internally resisted coil. It might be worth mentioning that the old coil read "6V" and "use without external resistor" but there was a resistor wired to it. I have a wire from my ignition going to the resistor then to the positive terminal on the coil and the negative going to the distributor, per the 12v conversion post by John in LA from 2004. I was reading conflicting posts (or maybe I'm misunderstanding something) which way the +/- wires go but I've tried both ways with no change. I'm sick of reading about coils and resistors...


At this point I was confident I replaced some obviously bad parts, but it still wont start. It cranks but rarely starts. There's been a time or two where it starts with little effort, like normal, then immediately dies. Doesn't matter where I have the choke. If it manages to run longer, its rough, backfiring frequently. And if I can manage to increase the throttle, the amp meter climbs (alternator starting to charge), at that exact moment, it dies. This lead me to look at the alternator and research the single wire vs 3 wire alternators...

Turns out I have a delco three wire alternator but there is only the one + wire running the the starter solenoid. The other two terminals were soldered together and capped off. They essentially made it a 1 wire alternator but did they do it in a legit way? I know one wire alternators will only charge above a certain rpm so that's what I'm seeing on the amp meter when I increase the throttle. But why does it die when it starts charging? I was thinking of replacing the starting solenoid and maybe wiring the alternator for three wire. I do have an ignition switch with accessory position so I think it would be pretty easy without the need for a diode. But is it necessary at this point? I just want the thing to run again.

I did remove the carburetor and gave it a good cleaning, made sure the floats still float and the settings were correct and reinstalled it with no noticeable improvements. I have a newer fuel tank with newer screen, and I didn't see much in the sediment bowl or in the carb itself. I could get a rebuild kit, but something tells me this isn't a fuel problem.

Any help would be appreciated!
 
Learn trouble shooting 101.
#1 check that you have a good blue/white spark at the center wire of the distributor gap that will jump a 1/4 inch gap or more and at all 4 plug wires.
#2 pull the carb drain plug and make sure you get a good steady flow of gas that will fill a pint jar in less then 3 minutes and 2 is even better. Yes do catch it so you can look for water/dirt etc. in it.
#3 WHEN was the last time you serviced the air cleaner and dumped the mud and water out of it and filled it with fresh oil
 
#1 check that you have a good blue/white spark at the center wire of the distributor gap that will jump a 1/4 inch gap or more and at all 4 plug wires.
I was assuming there was a way to do this but wasn't sure how. There's already evidence of spark at the cap and at each plug wire but I ll have to actually test it.

#2 pull the carb drain plug and make sure you get a good steady flow of gas that will fill a pint jar in less then 3 minutes and 2 is even better. Yes do catch it so you can look for water/dirt etc. in it.
I will try this!

#3 WHEN was the last time you serviced the air cleaner and dumped the mud and water out of it and filled it with fresh oil
I've changed out the oil but never actually cleaned the filter itself. I was curious if it will run normally with it off all together. I had it off for better access to things.

This post was edited by Shawnn on 01/02/2023 at 02:37 pm.
 
(quoted from post at 16:07:08 01/02/23) Did you replace the condenser? In
there with points ... Bad one
does strange things
I did not replace the condenser. I'm not experienced with carbs but my brother in law thought it looked ok. I guess it would be easy enough to replace. Would that be something that could spontaneously fail?

I was assuming it wasn't the gas because I get gas from that station all the time, plus I found all of the electrical related problems...But I'll definitely check the carb/gas tomorrow straight away.
 
To test spark at the coil wire you hold the wire about a 1/4 inch from the block some place and try to start it. To check at each plug you take an old plug and gap it as close to a 1/4 inch as you can. By the way now days the best pick for spark plugs are the NGK3112 plugs
 
(quoted from post at 18:40:55 01/02/23) To test spark at the coil wire you hold the wire about a 1/4 inch from the block some place and try to start it. To check at each plug you take an old plug and gap it as close to a 1/4 inch as you can. By the way now days the best pick for spark plugs are the NGK3112 plugs
k, that rings a bell actually. This is the first I heard of the ngk3112, so thank you!
 
I was moving snow for the better part of a day on and off. I took a break at one point and when I started the tractor the next time, it began running really rough, backfiring frequently. Sounds like it may have gotten moisture in the distributor


sanded the contact point in the distributor. Dont sand them, use a piece of folded coarse paper or a dollar bill. Sanding may have affected surface of points and left sand grit that kept closed points from making good contact. Did you check your points gap?? .025 Your symptoms are common to bad points. I would try a new set of quality points with gap set at .025. You could also try a different condenser if you have a known good one. Many new ones are DOA out of the box.

I replaced it with a 12v one from napa and also installed the corresponding resistor since I didn't get an internally resisted coil. Some 12 volt coils are labeled to 'use external resistor' some say 'Not for use with external resistor' Dont trust the labeling or what it says on the box. Check resistance across you coil. 1 1/2 ohms from to + on coil requires added 1 1/2 ohm resistor for use with 12 volts. 3 ohms does not need a resistor. Check your resistor, values can vary, it should be near 1 1/2 ohms. With negative ground system the -- on the coil goes to the side of distributor


6V and use without external resistor but there was a resistor wired to it. It was originally 6 volts and would not use added resistor. Resistor required with 12 volt conversion.


Turns out I have a delco three wire alternator but there is only the one + wire running the the starter solenoid. The other two terminals were soldered together and capped off. They essentially made it a 1 wire alternator but did they do it in a legit way? How do you know you have a 3 wire? It depends on what regulator module is in it. Delco one wire alternators see several different set ups for the 2 pin plug. If it worked before I would assume alternator is not your problem and would concentrate on getting it to run.

I was thinking of replacing the starting solenoid Why
 
Update...

I've tried doing all the things suggested to me. I verified I have good spark coming from the coil and at each plug. I removed the carb drain and it took about 3 minutes to reach 1 pint. Maybe a bit slow? I didn't see anything funny with the gas, no water that I could see. I removed the intake and gave it a good cleaning including the filter, but it really didn't look bad. The oil looked great since I recently replaced it. I also checked the tube leading to the carb and it also looked good with no buildup. Next, I drained the gas in the tank just to be safe and replaced it with fresh, non-ethanol gas from a different gas station. I also checked the coil with my multimeter and I got a reading of 1.4 ohms across the +/- posts. I believe the resistor showed 0.4 ohms.

So after all that, I would say there's a slight improvement... I am able to consistently start the tractor but it still continues to run rough, and quickly dies, usually within 5-10 seconds of starting. If I constantly fiddle with the choke I can keep it running, but just barely. To me, it sounds like it's running on 2 or 3 cylinders with an inconsistent gallop. I did play around with the main jet and idle screws with basically no change in performance. The main jet is about 1.25 to 1.5 turns out and the idle about 1 turn out. Doesn't make a difference where the throttle is, basically no response to throttle position.

I'm glad it's at least sort of running now but still way off with something...

This post was edited by Shawnn on 01/03/2023 at 01:23 pm.
 

Just checking but when you were messing with the points did you reinstall the little spring clip that helps hold the rotor button in place, if not the rotor button will bounce back and forth causing a miss fire condition
 
(quoted from post at 16:52:40 01/03/23)
Just checking but when you were messing with the points did you reinstall the little spring clip that helps hold the rotor button in place, if not the rotor button will bounce back and forth causing a miss fire condition
I m missing the clip! I m obviously pretty inexperienced with this stuff. I didn t see a clip when I first took the cap and rotor off so who knows where it went. Thank you for your comment, I ll be sure to get a new clip straight away.
 
Some newer tune up kits do NOT have the tension clip. They rely on a tight plastic fitment to the rotor shaft. I got an ebay kit for $49 and it did not have a clip, and the new rotor would never fit over the shaft plus tension clip. If the kit didn't have it, the rotor doesn't need it.

While you are in there. Grab the rotor shaft and force it left and right, and fore and aft. It should be very firm, with almost no rocking of the rotor shaft. If there is a lot of rocking in either direction the dist bushing has perished. This will cause rough running as the shaft wobbles about during rotation on the points. It not only has to be a hot blue spark, but it must be critically timed as well. "popping" sounds like a timing fault.

The carb on these is mega-simple. Take it off, take each jet out, clean completely with carb cleaner and compressed air. If you take a pic of the carb with the float bowl off, assembly is bone simple. Set main to 2 turns from closed, and set idle mix 1.5 turns from full closed.

Before mounting carb, grab the exhaust pipe below manifold with both hands and try to rock it in and out, while watching the manifold. Did it move at all? If yes, new mani gasket and nuts, torque to spec. If no, install carb with new gasket, connect linkage and try to run. Your fuel flow should get it idling without any problems. The 860 is my favorite tractor, well worth keeping in good shape.

This post was edited by docmirror on 01/03/2023 at 09:11 pm.
 
(quoted from post at 00:10:21 01/04/23) Some newer tune up kits do NOT have the tension clip. They rely on a tight plastic fitment to the rotor shaft. I got an ebay kit for $49 and it did not have a clip, and the new rotor would never fit over the shaft plus tension clip. If the kit didn't have it, the rotor doesn't need it.
So my distributor has the internal dust cap. I've noticed most dust caps have a metal bushing or washer on top that the rotor sits on. Mine does not have that. When I remove the cap, the dust cover usually comes out with it. I have to gently pry them apart. before doing so, the rotor definitely sounds a little loose between the cap and dust cover. I'm not sure if the play goes away when seated on the distributor/shaft. I'm thinking I have a older dust cap that uses the clip. Since the clip sits on the shaft above the dust cap, I can see how it would come off with the dust cap and main cap and maybe get flung out when separating the two to access the rotor. New clip should be here thursday. If that doesn't improve anything, I'll order a kit that includes a new dust cap and distributor cap so then I know everything is complete and compatible.

While you are in there. Grab the rotor shaft and force it left and right, and fore and aft. It should be very firm, with almost no rocking of the rotor shaft. If there is a lot of rocking in either direction the dist bushing has perished. This will cause rough running as the shaft wobbles about during rotation on the points. It not only has to be a hot blue spark, but it must be critically timed as well. "popping" sounds like a timing fault.
I've always felt if was a timing issue. Sounds similar to when the timing needed adjusting after replacing the head gaskets a year and a half ago. I can move the shaft ever so slightly forward/backward relative to the tractor. There's the slightest click when I do this but it doesn't seem very substantial to me. I know I'm inexperienced with this but it doesn't seem substantial enough to cause so much drama. There's absolutely no movement side to side.

The carb on these is mega-simple. Take it off, take each jet out, clean completely with carb cleaner and compressed air. If you take a pic of the carb with the float bowl off, assembly is bone simple. Set main to 2 turns from closed, and set idle mix 1.5 turns from full closed.
I previously cleaned it with carb cleaner but I was a little leery about disassembling everything... I can definitely give that a shot. I tried every possible setting with no major difference noted. I did 1/4 turn increments in both directions from the factory settings.

Before mounting carb, grab the exhaust pipe below manifold with both hands and try to rock it in and out, while watching the manifold. Did it move at all? If yes, new mani gasket and nuts, torque to spec. If no, install carb with new gasket, connect linkage and try to run. Your fuel flow should get it idling without any problems. The 860 is my favorite tractor, well worth keeping in good shape.
I didn't check the manifold before replacing the carb last time, however, I know I have a small crack and subsequent exhaust leak but I've had this for quite a while and never had any issues till now. I also did not replace the carb gasket as it looked intact enough for further diagnosing. Maybe I should get a rebuild kit with the gaskets. There's quite a few to pick from, does it pay to go with the more expensive ones with more pieces? This tractor has been great and has been such a good runner up until now. But I can definitely see she's due for some tlc here and there. I was hoping it could wait till next summer since I don't have a heated garage.
 
(quoted from post at 09:10:56 01/04/23)
(quoted from post at 00:10:21 01/04/23) Some newer tune up kits do NOT have the tension clip. They rely on a tight plastic fitment to the rotor shaft. I got an ebay kit for $49 and it did not have a clip, and the new rotor would never fit over the shaft plus tension clip. If the kit didn't have it, the rotor doesn't need it.
So my distributor has the internal dust cap. I've noticed most dust caps have a metal bushing or washer on top that the rotor sits on. Mine does not have that. When I remove the cap, the dust cover usually comes out with it. I have to gently pry them apart. before doing so, the rotor definitely sounds a little loose between the cap and dust cover. I'm not sure if the play goes away when seated on the distributor/shaft. I'm thinking I have a older dust cap that uses the clip. Since the clip sits on the shaft above the dust cap, I can see how it would come off with the dust cap and main cap and maybe get flung out when separating the two to access the rotor. New clip should be here thursday. If that doesn't improve anything, I'll order a kit that includes a new dust cap and distributor cap so then I know everything is complete and compatible.

While you are in there. Grab the rotor shaft and force it left and right, and fore and aft. It should be very firm, with almost no rocking of the rotor shaft. If there is a lot of rocking in either direction the dist bushing has perished. This will cause rough running as the shaft wobbles about during rotation on the points. It not only has to be a hot blue spark, but it must be critically timed as well. "popping" sounds like a timing fault.
I've always felt if was a timing issue. Sounds similar to when the timing needed adjusting after replacing the head gaskets a year and a half ago. I can move the shaft ever so slightly forward/backward relative to the tractor. There's the slightest click when I do this but it doesn't seem very substantial to me. I know I'm inexperienced with this but it doesn't seem substantial enough to cause so much drama. There's absolutely no movement side to side.

The carb on these is mega-simple. Take it off, take each jet out, clean completely with carb cleaner and compressed air. If you take a pic of the carb with the float bowl off, assembly is bone simple. Set main to 2 turns from closed, and set idle mix 1.5 turns from full closed.
I previously cleaned it with carb cleaner but I was a little leery about disassembling everything... I can definitely give that a shot. I tried every possible setting with no major difference noted. I did 1/4 turn increments in both directions from the factory settings.

Before mounting carb, grab the exhaust pipe below manifold with both hands and try to rock it in and out, while watching the manifold. Did it move at all? If yes, new mani gasket and nuts, torque to spec. If no, install carb with new gasket, connect linkage and try to run. Your fuel flow should get it idling without any problems. The 860 is my favorite tractor, well worth keeping in good shape.
I didn't check the manifold before replacing the carb last time, however, I know I have a small crack and subsequent exhaust leak but I've had this for quite a while and never had any issues till now. I also did not replace the carb gasket as it looked intact enough for further diagnosing. Maybe I should get a rebuild kit with the gaskets. There's quite a few to pick from, does it pay to go with the more expensive ones with more pieces? This tractor has been great and has been such a good runner up until now. But I can definitely see she's due for some tlc here and there. I was hoping it could wait till next summer since I don't have a heated garage.

OK, first your dust cap/rotor interference is a problem. The dust cap does not turn, the rotor must turn. I don't know how it got that way, and I don't know how to fix it, but I do know it should not interfere. So, fix that.

If your rotor is loose on the dist shaft, you likely need the tension clip, so fix that.

Dist shaft will rock some fore and aft, but not at all side to side. Your dist bushing is out of round. Get either a new bushing or there is an insert that can be replaced. Depending on the orientation of the points, if you can rock the shaft .002", that is a change of .004" at the contact of the points. The distance from the pivot to the contact is double the distance to the cam follower.

Repl carb gasket. Check mating surfaces are flat and true.

With the points open use a VOM on 20 ohm range. Set meter lead to the small nut on the back of the points, and the other test lead to the NEG of the coil. Insure you have near zero resistance there. Wiggle the wire, the resistance must remain very low. Move the test lead from the NEG of the coil to the dist case on a clean metal surface. Range up the VOM, insure you have a very high resistance, open circuit.
 
Final update, got it running!

So, first off I want to thank everyone that gave me advice, it was very helpful and I learned a great deal. I knew very little about distributors/ignition systems and now I'm much more comfortable with it. Thank you!

So it turns out it was the distributor condenser. Maybe this can help someone in the future, so I'm going to recap...

This is the order of what I found/did...First, I replaced the plugs as they were black and improperly gaped. Next I found my plug wires were badly corroded. I had a difficult time removing them from the cap but especially the coil. I couldn't source an internally resisted 12v coil locally so I went with a 12v napa coil and matching external resistor. I noticed the distributor cap had worn terminals inside and out so I replaced that. My internal dust cap didn't look like the ones I was finding online, with a metal washer on top and a rubber o-ring on the bottom, so I replaced that. Then I ordered the small retaining clip that sits under the rotor. I may have misplaced the clip at some point, or maybe I never had it, who knows. The clip greatly reduced how much the rotor can rotate on the shaft. Then, I purchased an ignition kit which included a rotor, points, and condenser. The original points looked ok but replaced it anyway and gaped it to 0.025 per the box it came in. The condenser had the mounting bracket backwards, so initially I didn't replace that. I previously gave the carb a good cleaning and made sure the main jet was 2x out and the idle 1.5 turns out. I also put fresh gas in the tank and cleaned my intake. At this point I was able to start the tractor but it was still running rough and didn't stay running long.

I then decided to pry the mounting bracket off the new condenser and was able to use the old condenser bracket. Put everything back together and.... It fired right up and ran smoother than ever! Seriously, this thing has never ran so good from the day I brought it home. I'm pretty sure it was the condenser preventing it from running smooth but it clearly needed other parts as well. I'm wondering if all the corrosion and added resistance caused some sort of cascade of problems down the line.

One last thing... regarding the retaining clip for the distributor rotor. Many may already understand this, but it wasn't clear to me initially. Websites like steiner and yesterdays tractor have ignition kits. These kits don't appear to include the clip (yesterdays tractor shows a bag but I can't tell what's in it and they don't mention it in the description). I mention this because somebody suggested that if the kit doesn't include the clip, it's not needed. It's my opinion this isn't necessarily the case. I ended up ordering the ignition kit and clip on steiners website because they had an exploded diagram of all the distributor parts. It showed the clip sitting under the rotor. I ended up chatting with them and they confirmed it's sold separately from the ignition tune up kit. Is steiners rotor the same as yesterdays tractor or joe schmo's on ebay? I'm thinking yes, but without knowing for sure, I decided to go with steiner to ensure compatibility since they were the only ones that showed the diagram. My rotor definitely had rotational play when sitting on the shaft. It's all but eliminated with the clip. Does it make a noticeable difference in performance? I'm too scared to open the distributor again to test it. haha I guess if the rotor has play sitting on the shaft, get the clip!
 
Sounds good. A condenser is a capacitor with a different name. It's rare for them to fail but clearly it does happen. If there was corrosion on the condenser clamp, that could have been part of the problem, because the case of the condenser is one leg of the ignition circuit.

As for the rotor clip. I bought the ign kit off ebay, and did not have a clip. But - the rotor was very snug on the dist shaft and there is no way a clip could have gone under this type of rotor. So, some stick with the originality of the Delco design, and some do away with the clip and use a tight fit rotor. Bottom line, if the rotor is not very snug on the shaft, the clip is required. I now have a spare clip.

Tuning the carb to get rid of fouled plugs. Warm the tractor up fully, let it idle. Turn the idle screw in until you note a drop in RPM. From that point, turn the screw out 1/4 turn only.

Next, slowly rev the engine all the way to WOT(wide open throttle). The throttle will not really be 'wide open' because we use a governor and there is no load on the engine. Now, turn the main mixture screw in until there is a drop in RPM. This is a lean condition. Turn the main mixture screw out slightly until full RPM is gained. Turn out an extra 1/4.

Go use the tractor and see if it bogs when putting a load on it either plowing, or whatever load you have. If it bogs down, turn the mixture screw out very slightly. Redo this until you get good power, and no bogging down.

My 860 is in the shop for power steering repair, and I miss it. My favorite workhorse, and it's been very reliable up until the PS dump fluid all over the center.
 
(quoted from post at 16:14:04 01/12/23) Sounds good. A condenser is a capacitor with a different name. It's rare for them to fail but clearly it does happen. If there was corrosion on the condenser clamp, that could have been part of the problem, because the case of the condenser is one leg of the ignition circuit.
There definitely wasn't any corrosion or anything obviously wrong with the condenser so I was a bit surprised myself. My tractor has had a battery drain since I took ownership. Could it have been related to a bad condenser or coil? I installed a battery terminal disconnect because I could never isolate the drain. But since I did all this work I've been able to leave the battery connected with no drain so far.
As for the rotor clip. I bought the ign kit off ebay, and did not have a clip. But - the rotor was very snug on the dist shaft and there is no way a clip could have gone under this type of rotor. So, some stick with the originality of the Delco design, and some do away with the clip and use a tight fit rotor. Bottom line, if the rotor is not very snug on the shaft, the clip is required. I now have a spare clip.
It's weird because my rotor was tight on the shaft without the clip but I was still getting a little rotational play. I had to be pretty forceful to get the new rotor on over the clip (which was not what I expected) but now there's no more play. It's a silly design to say the least and I can see why updated designs would do away with the clip.
Tuning the carb to get rid of fouled plugs. Warm the tractor up fully, let it idle. Turn the idle screw in until you note a drop in RPM. From that point, turn the screw out 1/4 turn only.

Next, slowly rev the engine all the way to WOT(wide open throttle). The throttle will not really be 'wide open' because we use a governor and there is no load on the engine. Now, turn the main mixture screw in until there is a drop in RPM. This is a lean condition. Turn the main mixture screw out slightly until full RPM is gained. Turn out an extra 1/4.

Go use the tractor and see if it bogs when putting a load on it either plowing, or whatever load you have. If it bogs down, turn the mixture screw out very slightly. Redo this until you get good power, and no bogging down.
My choke is out maybe a 1/2" after warming up. If I push it all the way in, it will begin to foul. Will your tuning procedure help with this? I assume the choke should be in all the way once warmed up.

My 860 is in the shop for power steering repair, and I miss it. My favorite workhorse, and it's been very reliable up until the PS dump fluid all over the center.
Oh man, sounds like a mess. My tractor came to me running and usable but with a list of things that need fixing yet. The front hydraulic pump is leaking, the rear three point is sluggish, the brakes barely work...I have my work cut out for me but I enjoy working on it when it's not winter.
 
This doesn't make a lot of sense. If you push the choke button in, that means the choke plate is open(off, no choke). This condition would make the mixture leaner, not richer and tend to avoid fuel fouling.

So, with the engine warm, make sure the choke control is all the way in, which opens the choke plate fully. If the engine won't stay running, you may need to turn the main mixture out a bit, for more rich mixture. Mixture screw turned outward decreases the fuel to air mix ratio, or said another way increases the fuel delivered to the air stream.

Lean is 16:1, ideal is about 14:1 and rich is 12:1. There is a product called the Gunson ColorTune which is avail on amazon. It is a clear glass insulator spark plug that can be used in one cyl to set the exact mixture visibly. I use it when tuning old Lamborghini and Ferrari cars with carbs. Check youtube for 'gunson colortune' and see how it works.

The key to carb tuning is to keep the engine as lean as possible to avoid fouling while still producing good power under a load. Start too lean is best, and then carefully go a bit richer until good power is obtained under a load. You may need to clean your plugs after a few tries as they will possibly soot up with a too rich mixture.
 

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