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Ford 771 loader hydraulics haywire

J

John R in Wisconsin

Member
I have a new-to-me Ford 1900 compact tractor with a Ford 771 loader. It was working fine for a couple of months, but suddenly the hydraulic controls have gone wonky. When the lever is pushed forward to lower the loader arms, the arms go up. When I push or pull the lever that controls the tilt of the bucket, it tilts only downward, but it will not go the opposite way.

The control valve for the loader arms and bucket has a plate that shows the valve model as 23FATS1P1KA. Something has obviously gone wrong inside. Can these valves be rebuilt? If so, where would I find parts or a replacement? I googled this valve number but could not come up with it.

Phots are attached. Thanks for any help!
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Suspect that where the lines go down to hook to the bottom and side of tractor at the supply pump.... have been reversed... Did you have the loader off or the tractor serviced recently?
 
OR... you loader is supplied from the rear hydraulic remotes.. and some one moved the lever to the opposite direction a the remotes... just under the seat.
 
Check to see if the three point hitch is going into bypass when the handle is pulled all the way back. Push the three point handle down and see if that corrects your loader problem. If it does there is an adjustment that can be made on the three point to prevent it going into bypass.

Mark
 
Thanks for the replies! I have not had the loader off the tractor, so hydraulic lines are not reversed. However, on Saturday I used the three point on this tractor with a blade to grade my driveway. After I unhooked the blade I raised the three-point control all the way up and back. It sounds like this may be my problem! I looked in my operator's manual, and there is no mention of this, but I will definitely try moving that lever forward and see what happens. I will let you know!
 
Good news! I had left the three point control all the way back after using a blade on the three point. When I restarted the
tractor and pushed the three-point lever forward, the loader works perfectly! Thanks to Mark for that suggestion!

Mark mentioned the three point going into bypass when the control lever is pulled all the way back. What exactly does this mean?
My operators manual makes no mention of this, or why I should or should not use that control position.
 
When the loader valve and 3 point hitch valves are in the neutral position the oil from the pump flows through the loader valve and the 3 point valve to sump. When the 3 point lever is pulled all the way back and goes into bypass it causes the loader valve to have pressure in both the inlet and outlet side of the loader valve. If it is going into bypass before the handle is all the way back it can be adjusted by lengthening the rod and clevis (Item 53 and 54) which is what puts the 3 point valve into neutral when the arms get to the level set by the handle.

Mark
Adjusting rod
 
mhb@ufe said:
When the loader valve and 3 point hitch valves are in the neutral position the oil from the pump flows through the loader valve and the 3 point valve to sump. When the 3 point lever is pulled all the way back and goes into bypass it causes the loader valve to have pressure in both the inlet and outlet side of the loader valve. If it is going into bypass before the handle is all the way back it can be adjusted by lengthening the rod and clevis (Item 53 and 54) which is what puts the 3 point valve into neutral when the arms get to the level set by the handle.

Mark
Adjusting rod
Click to expand...
Hi Mark,

This new forum software has sucked me into the Ford group.:rolleyes:

I am curiois why these little Ford loaders are plumbed in without power beyond. Any insights?

Dan
 
TheOldHokie said:
Hi Mark,

This new forum software has sucked me into the Ford group.:rolleyes:

I am curiois why these little Ford loaders are plumbed in without power beyond. Any insights?

Dan
Click to expand...
In my experience, the loader valves are simply inserted between the hydraulic pump and the tractor hydraulics on the rear. They are simple two spool valves with built in relief but most had no power beyond provision. I've seen many done that way. As to "why", I have no clue other than cost savings at the expense of "doing it right". At least this seems to be the case on the older models. At some point they added the divertor block into the pressure line with three ports for auxiliary hydraulics and started using power beyond style valves but not on the 1900 and models of that series.
 
Harry in Ky said:
In my experience, the loader valves are simply inserted between the hydraulic pump and the tractor hydraulics on the rear. They are simple two spool valves with built in relief but most had no power beyond provision. I've seen many done that way. As to "why", I have no clue other than cost savings at the expense of "doing it right". At least this seems to be the case on the older models. At some point they added the divertor block into the pressure line with three ports for auxiliary hydraulics and started using power beyond style valves but not on the 1900 and models of that series.
Click to expand...
All it takes to do it right is the correct valve snd s third hose goung to the tank. Nor a big expense.
 
TheOldHokie said:
All it takes to do it right is the correct valve snd s third hose goung to the tank. Nor a big expense.
Click to expand...
I'm fully aware of that, but apparently those who engineered the loader packages for the compact tractors of the day didn't agree (or didn't care). Who knows why?

All I know is I've seen a great many set up like the one pictured above. Not just on Ford compacts, but others as well. It seems to have been the standard of the day. I've changed a few of them over to new valves with power beyond when/if replacement was necessary.
 
TheOldHokie said:
All it takes to do it right is the correct valve snd s third hose goung to the tank. Not a big expense.
Click to expand...

Harry in Ky said:
I'm fully aware of that, but apparently those who engineered the loader packages for the compact tractors of the day didn't agree (or didn't care). Who knows why?

All I know is I've seen a great many set up like the one pictured above. Not just on Ford compacts, but others as well. It seems to have been the standard of the day. I've changed a few of them over to new valves with power beyond when/if replacement was necessary.
Click to expand...
Certainly not a standard on far older Kubotas. Good way to kill a pump and/or valve.

Dan
 
Harry in Ky said:
I'm fully aware of that, but apparently those who engineered the loader packages for the compact tractors of the day didn't agree (or didn't care). Who knows why?

All I know is I've seen a great many set up like the one pictured above. Not just on Ford compacts, but others as well. It seems to have been the standard of the day. I've changed a few of them over to new valves with power beyond when/if replacement was necessary.
Click to expand...
If Mark's description of the cause of this issue is correct:

When the loader valve and 3 point hitch valves are in the neutral position the oil from the pump flows through the loader valve and the 3 point valve to sump. When the 3 point lever is pulled all the way back and goes into bypass it causes the loader valve to have pressure in both the inlet and outlet side of the loader valve.
Click to expand...

Then I don't see how changing the loader valve to one with power beyond that goes back to the reservoir would help anything. If it has pressure on the input and return lines, then you won't be able to move any dual acting cylinders as there is still nowhere for the pressure to go from the return port other than the opposite side of the cylinder you are trying to power.
 
Sean in PA said:
If Mark's description of the cause of this issue is correct:



Then I don't see how changing the loader valve to one with power beyond that goes back to the reservoir would help anything. If it has pressure on the input and return lines, then you won't be able to move any dual acting cylinders as there is still nowhere for the pressure to go from the return port other than the opposite side of the cylinder you are trying to power.
Click to expand...
If it has power beyond there is no pressure on the tank return line - just the high pressure carry over port.

That allows the the loader cylinders to dump to tank when the valve is shifted. It also allows the inlet relief on the loader valve to unload the pump when the spools are in neutral. The PO would most likely never have realized there was a problem with the 3pt feedback.

Dan
 
TheOldHokie said:
If it has power beyond there is no pressure on the tank return line - just the high pressure carry over port.

That allows the the loader cylinders to dump to tank when the valve is shifted. It also allows the inlet relief on the loader valve to unload the pump when the spools are in neutral. The PO would most likely never have realized there was a problem with the 3pt feedback.

Dan
Click to expand...
Are you saying connect the power beyond port to where the return port was connected previously, and connect the original return port to the line going back to the reservoir? That makes sense I guess.
 
Sean in PA said:
Are you saying connect the power beyond port to where the return port was connected previously, and connect the original return port to the line going back to the reservoir? That makes sense I guess.
Click to expand...
Of course - its how an open centet power beyond circuit works. Tank port always goes direct to tank and PB port goes to pump inlet on next valve in the chain.

Dan
 
I won't dispute your logic on that. I don't see enough smaller Kubota tractors of that vintage to agree or disagree. That's not the issue here.

I do know I've seen any number of rebadged Japanese compacts marketed in the 70's, 80's, 90's, etc sold by different tractor makers (some of them long gone now) with loaders made and installed in this country that were set up just like the one we're discussing. And yes, I do agree that any loader valve placed between the pump and the three point SHOULD be configured for power beyond. My point is simply that at one time many were not, and some of them are still out there.
 
TheOldHokie said:
Of course - its how an open centet power beyond circuit works. Tank port always goes direct to tank and PB port goes to pump inlet on next valve in the chain.

Dan
Click to expand...
OK, I guess I was over simplifying things. With the power and return ports both getting pressure it couldn't work, but with the power and PB ports getting pressure, the return port could still relieve the pressure on the far side of the cylinders getting powered. It just didn't make sense to me at first.
 
Sean in PA said:
OK, I guess I was over simplifying things. With the power and return ports both getting pressure it couldn't work, but with the power and PB ports getting pressure, the return port could still relieve the pressure on the far side of the cylinders getting powered. It just didn't make sense to me at first.
Click to expand...
Thats precisely why open center systems use power beyond circuits.. Anytime you use the tank circuit to supply a downstream valve you are potentially putting the cylinders and/or motors in series. There are times where you might actually want that but usually not.

Add to that backpressuring the tank circuit prevents any inlet relief from functioning. And in many designs it also subjects the external housing seals on the spools to pressures beuond their design limit snd you risk getting leaks. Most of these commodity open center valves have a max tank pressure rating around 500-700 PSI.

Dan
 
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