Ugh! 841 Powermaster won't start

ZehnX

Member
Update: Fixed and running as of 12/18/2021


Hello Friends!
When I purchased this tractor, it would roll forward when you used the starter, the assumption from the previous owner being that the clutch plate had rusted to the flywheel.

After a lot of work, including removing the loader, I split the tractor and replaced the clutch, only to then discover the problem was actually some kind of jam in the shifter plates. That fixed, I sought to get the tractor to run while the rear axle is still up on jackstands to make sure the problem is actually solved.

But now it turns over and won't start. Even when the starter was driving the whole tractor, it was at times able to start and run (in second gear, I believe.) It would stumble when attempting to throttle up at that time, I assume because of the transmission issue at the time.

In the course of all this work, I've replaced the intake/exhaust header and muffler, the solenoid, coil, spark plugs and battery cables. I cleaned the air intake and the battery is charged. I did a basic refresh of the carburetor, put fresh fuel in the tank (though the tank is not full.) The engine oil has good level but the hydraulic fluid is low. There is a minor fuel leak at the sediment bowl, but fuel is getting to the carburetor and there is no water in the sediment bowl.
I was able to get 90psi compression at each cylinder, and when I put a timing light on each plug wire, it would give a weak light. The continuity of each plug wire is good and the resistance of the cable between the coil and distributor is 4k Ohms (I don't know what it's supposed to be.) I checked timing by getting the flywheel to 8 degrees and making sure the distributor rotor was pointed to the #1 plug, then connected the other plugs in the 1243 pattern.
The rotor does not seem very tight in the distributor, but it appears to be in good condition.

With the new exhaust header, the air intake pipe is in contact with the starter. This hasn't affected starter operation, I'm just trying to think of anything that could be different from before.

I am stumped. Any ideas!

This post was edited by ZehnX on 12/18/2021 at 03:19 pm.
 
(quoted from post at 18:07:36 10/16/21) Hello Friends!
When I purchased this tractor, it would roll forward when you used the starter, the assumption from the previous owner being that the clutch plate had rusted to the flywheel.

After a lot of work, including removing the loader, I split the tractor and replaced the clutch, only to then discover the problem was actually some kind of jam in the shifter plates. That fixed, I sought to get the tractor to run while the rear axle is still up on jackstands to make sure the problem is actually solved.

But now it turns over and won't start. Even when the starter was driving the whole tractor, it was at times able to start and run (in second gear, I believe.) It would stumble when attempting to throttle up at that time, I assume because of the transmission issue at the time.

In the course of all this work, I've replaced the intake/exhaust header and muffler, the solenoid, coil, spark plugs and battery cables. I cleaned the air intake and the battery is charged. I did a basic refresh of the carburetor, put fresh fuel in the tank (though the tank is not full.) The engine oil has good level but the hydraulic fluid is low. There is a minor fuel leak at the sediment bowl, but fuel is getting to the carburetor and there is no water in the sediment bowl.
I was able to get 90psi compression at each cylinder, and when I put a timing light on each plug wire, it would give a weak light. The continuity of each plug wire is good and the resistance of the cable between the coil and distributor is 4k Ohms (I don't know what it's supposed to be.) I checked timing by getting the flywheel to 8 degrees and making sure the distributor rotor was pointed to the #1 plug, then connected the other plugs in the 1243 pattern.
The rotor does not seem very tight in the distributor, but it appears to be in good condition.

With the new exhaust header, the air intake pipe is in contact with the starter. This hasn't affected starter operation, I'm just trying to think of anything that could be different from before.

I am stumped. Any ideas!
243 CCW?
 
I had a 961 recently that had the same symptoms. The fix turned out to be a bad connection from the points to the inside of the dist negative lead lug.

If you remove the rotor, and the plastic cover and note the points, there is an insulator on the housing, and the negative lead from the points connects to that insulated lug. There is a small wire, usually green but may be black that goes from the lug on the inside to the fixed side of points, and connects to condenser.

In my case, the crimp at the end of the housing lug was poor, and I could clearly see carbon build up on the copper wire, which increased the resistance and produced weak, yellow spark.

The picture shows a black wire, but on a Ford, it may be green or black. Try making a new one, with new crimp ends, and do away with the 60 year old wire, and connectors.
mvphoto83282.jpg
 
(quoted from post at 20:24:30 10/16/21) There is a small wire, usually green but may be black that goes from the lug on the inside to the fixed side of points, and connects to condenser.

OEM on an 841 would not have been a wire! It would be a small, flat copper strip.
 
(quoted from post at 01:32:03 10/17/21)
(quoted from post at 20:24:30 10/16/21) There is a small wire, usually green but may be black that goes from the lug on the inside to the fixed side of points, and connects to condenser.

OEM on an 841 would not have been a wire! It would be a small, flat copper strip.

I have an 861, and it has the green wire also. Maybe there are different dist used along the way? Of course, since 196x, the flat copper strip may have been modified and/or replaced.
 
(quoted from post at 04:32:03 10/17/21)
(quoted from post at 20:24:30 10/16/21) There is a small wire, usually green but may be black that goes from the lug on the inside to the fixed side of points, and connects to condenser.

OEM on an 841 would not have been a wire! It would be a small, flat copper strip.
greed! His picture of points with connector tabs (not screw) looks like after-market distributor, not Ford's Autolite distributor.
 
1243 CCW?[/quote]

When I hit the starter button with the dist cap off, it appears to rotate CW. Are you suggesting this is wrong? If so, Yikes.
 
Lynn Patrick, cskent: did not see a small metal clip. If it's lost, do you think I would get a new one with a new rotor?
Edit: I see where this part is sold on the YT website. I definitely do not have one of these clips. Thanks!

This post was edited by ZehnX on 10/18/2021 at 11:28 am.
 
docmirror: Thank you! I will definitely check this.

This post was edited by ZehnX on 10/18/2021 at 10:39 am.
 
mvphoto83362.jpg

Here's the distributor with the cap off. Looks like this stuff has been updated.
I can also confirm I do not have a metal clip between the rotor and shaft.[/img:8c2031b11c]
 
(quoted from post at 13:34:44 10/18/21) 1243 CCW?

When I hit the starter button with the dist cap off, it appears to rotate CW. Are you suggesting this is wrong? If so, Yikes.[/quote]ope, CW is correct. Are the wires 1243 in the CW order?
 
Yes, I did have 1243 in CW direction.
However, when i could see 8degrees in the flywheel timing window, the rotor was pointing NE, so that's where the #1 plug wire goes, right?
 
ZehnX, you are correct. the firing order is c.w. But just looking at that photo, it looks to me like those points are burned. That can happen if the key was left on and the points were closed. I don't like that sharp bend on the condenser wire either. The insulation hasn't rubbed through and it is shorting to the side is it?
 
(quoted from post at 18:18:33 10/18/21)
Jim L WA: wow, I think you're right about the wire. Didn't even notice when I took the picture. I don't have enough experience with points to know what burning looks like, but using I circuit tester, they do seem to function. I'll replace them anyway. Thank you
 
(quoted from post at 21:31:31 10/18/21) Limestone; I have seen those for sale, what would the benefit be?

Not Limestone, but I just put a Pertronix EI in my '63 4000. It's a 6 volt . . . and i like it. No more points and condensors to mess with. Should be a lot less maintenance and a lot less expense in the long run. Cost about what 4 sets of points and 4 condensors would cost and surely has a better reputation than points and especially condensors have nowadays.
 


I agree that EI is the way to go, even though I have only two at this point. However, they are not magic, and conventional wisdom in trouble shooting a no start says to avoid making any more changes than necessary. More changes means more variables to sort through.
 
(quoted from post at 08:22:41 10/19/21)

I agree that EI is the way to go, even though I have only two at this point. However, they are not magic, and conventional wisdom in trouble shooting a no start says to avoid making any more changes than necessary. More changes means more variables to sort through.

I'm with you at this point. $7 distributor kit versus $132 EI, no brainer. Maybe down the road though.
 
(quoted from post at 17:09:37 10/18/21) Yes, I did have 1243 in CW direction.
However, when i could see 8degrees in the flywheel timing window, the rotor was pointing NE, so that's where the #1 plug wire goes, right?
E? Don't be concerned with direction that rotor is pointing, as they can be made to run perfectly well where ever it points. It needs to point to distr cap tower that is connected to #1 spark plug when #1 cylinder is at TDC-compression stroke. Timong mark on flywheel is visible both when #1 and #4 are at TDC (one on compression, one on exhaust). You have to determine which is on compression stroke. I use thumb over spark plug hole method. If all that is too complicated for you, 4 trial & error arrangements will get you there the simplest & quickest. Also, if you can't make it run on points, you probably can't make it run by spending $200 on EI.. You can think about EI once it is running, at the earliest! Pictures are for older tractor that was CCW, so just reverse the rotation of numbers for your CW tractor. Just 4 combinations.
 
(quoted from post at 08:54:18 10/19/21) NE? Don't be concerned with direction that rotor is pointing, as they can be made to run perfectly well where ever it points. It needs to point to distr cap tower that is connected to #1 spark plug when #1 cylinder is at TDC-compression stroke. Timing mark on flywheel is visible both when #1 and #4 are at TDC (one on compression, one on exhaust). You have to determine which is on compression stroke. I use thumb over spark plug hole method. If all that is too complicated for you, 4 trial & error arrangements will get you there the simplest & quickest. Also, if you can't make it run on points, you probably can't make it run by spending $200 on EI.. You can think about EI once it is running, at the earliest! Pictures are for older tractor that was CCW, so just reverse the rotation of numbers for your CW tractor. Just 4 combinations.
I should have checked for compression stroke. It took so long to see the degree markings that I just went with it as soon as it lined up. I used to stick a long screwdriver in the #1 hole on my xterra to find TDC. Thumb over plug hole is better of course, especially when it's right in front of your face like on this tractor.
I'm still into the learning at this point, fascinated how the tractor was engineered so long ago (relatively).
 
Jim l wa: turns out the condenser wire is in perfect condition, the angle of the picture was just right to hide the 3d turn.
 
cskent, Lynn Patrick: I got rotor clips in, installed one; the rotor seems to have less play, but no change in starting. Tomorrow I'll probably get to the points replacement.
 
docmirror and all:
I replaced the points, condenser, and rotor. The new rotor fits nice and snugly, but the tractor still turns over and won't start. I went through all four plug positions, no effect.

One thing I have a question about: The previous coil was labeled 'for use with external resistor or resistor main cable' and I replaced it with an internal resistor coil. There was no external resistor, but the wire connecting the coil to the distributor has a resistance of 3kOhms. Do I need a new main wire? I picked up a cut-to-length wire set (not installed yet) from AutoZone but the main wire from that kit has a resistance of 9kOhms so I don't imagine that will work better.

My new inline spark tester does light up nicely on each plug wire, so I'm about to eliminate 'spark' as the problem with starting and go back to 'fuel.'

I looked at the carburetor diagram in my parts manual and saw a spring under the float; what happens if that's gone? I've got small fuel leaks above the sediment bowl, after the sediment bowl, and at the main valve underneath, (TSX 662) but there's fuel in the carb bowl.

I'm going to post a video of the sound it makes trying to turn over, probably later this afternoon.
 
(quoted from post at 11:13:20 10/24/21) docmirror and all:
I replaced the points, condenser, and rotor. The new rotor fits nice and snugly, but the tractor still turns over and won't start. I went through all four plug positions, no effect.

One thing I have a question about: The previous coil was labeled 'for use with external resistor or resistor main cable' and I replaced it with an internal resistor coil. There was no external resistor, but the wire connecting the coil to the distributor has a resistance of 3kOhms. Do I need a new main wire? I picked up a cut-to-length wire set (not installed yet) from AutoZone but the main wire from that kit has a resistance of 9kOhms so I don't imagine that will work better.

My new inline spark tester does light up nicely on each plug wire, so I'm about to eliminate 'spark' as the problem with starting and go back to 'fuel.'

I looked at the carburetor diagram in my parts manual and saw a spring under the float; what happens if that's gone? I've got small fuel leaks above the sediment bowl, after the sediment bowl, and at the main valve underneath, (TSX 662) but there's fuel in the carb bowl.

I'm going to post a video of the sound it makes trying to turn over, probably later this afternoon.


A week ago I asked if you had gas getting to the cylinders.
 
(quoted from post at 19:17:44 10/24/21)


A week ago I asked if you had gas getting to the cylinders.

Yes, you did!
Others went for the electrical angle, so I followed that out. I had just worked on the carb, and was ready to try another angle.

How would you check for fuel in the cylinders? Pull the spark plugs and hit the starter to see if fueled-air comes out?
 
(quoted from post at 17:30:31 10/24/21)
(quoted from post at 19:17:44 10/24/21)


A week ago I asked if you had gas getting to the cylinders.

Yes, you did!
Others went for the electrical angle, so I followed that out. I had just worked on the carb, and was ready to try another angle.

How would you check for fuel in the cylinders? Pull the spark plugs and hit the starter to see if fueled-air comes out?


No, easier than that. Just try your normal attempt to start which should be 1. turn key on, 2. press and HOLD starter button, 3. after one crank revolution (.75 second) pull choke fully, 4. continue to crank for 7 more seconds and stop. Then remove 2 plugs and check for presence of gas. This is so quick and easy that it is usually done within the first 10 minutes of trouble shooting.
 
(quoted from post at 09:04:39 10/26/21)


No, easier than that. Just try your normal attempt to start which should be 1. turn key on, 2. press and HOLD starter button, 3. after one crank revolution (.75 second) pull choke fully, 4. continue to crank for 7 more seconds and stop. Then remove 2 plugs and check for presence of gas. This is so quick and easy that it is usually done within the first 10 minutes of trouble shooting.

I will try this as soon as I get back out there. Is 'checking for the presence of gas' a sniff test?

After 7 seconds of the starter button, isn't the gassed air being pushed out the exhaust?

Elementary to you isn't elementary to me, I started out with efi engines and have only recently gotten to carburetor systems. Lots to learn and I love it!
 
(quoted from post at 07:34:50 10/26/21)
(quoted from post at 09:04:39 10/26/21)


No, easier than that. Just try your normal attempt to start which should be 1. turn key on, 2. press and HOLD starter button, 3. after one crank revolution (.75 second) pull choke fully, 4. continue to crank for 7 more seconds and stop. Then remove 2 plugs and check for presence of gas. This is so quick and easy that it is usually done within the first 10 minutes of trouble shooting.

I will try this as soon as I get back out there. Is 'checking for the presence of gas' a sniff test?




After 7 seconds of the starter button, isn't the gassed air being pushed out the exhaust?

Elementary to you isn't elementary to me, I started out with efi engines and have only recently gotten to carburetor systems. Lots to learn and I love it!


If the engine does not run the gas does not get burned so the plugs should be wet. Before the "gassed" air gets pushed out the "un-gassed" air gets pushed out. Leaving air-gas mixture, if the gas is getting through the carburetor.
 
After 7 seconds of the starter button, isn't the gassed air being pushed out the exhaust?

If the carb is working properly and the air flow thorough the carb is not restricted, and there is no other leak on the intake side, then every intake stroke should fill the combustion chamber with the air/fuel mixture. If it doesn't combust it will be pushed out through the exhaust valve on the next exhaust stroke, but the next intake stroke should fill it again.
 
Sean in PA, showcrop:

Thank you both for the explanation. Today, I rebuilt the carburetor using a complete kit. The jets are in place as directed in the rebuild kit; all the way in then one revolution back. There remains a minor fuel leak where the main line connects to the sediment bowl.
I also put a vacuum on the air intake system and felt the vacuum at the intake port of the air cleaner just to make sure there was no obstruction there.
One thing I've noticed is that when I am holding the starter button, there is very little vacuum on the air intake. I do not know what it should feel like. It feels similar at the end of the muffler. (I was in the process of replacing the exhaust system and stopped at the muffler.)

When I did the starting method showcrop recommended, I could feel wet on the end of the sparkplugs but the fuel smell was not very strong. I did smell it in the air though. (I do not know what to expect.)

I was trying different configurations of the sparkplugs, no change. When I tried to use the inline spark tester, for some reason, the starter stopped working. I could hear the click of the solenoid though. I assume the battery was drained, so it's on the charger awaiting my next weekend.

I am at a loss for what to do next. Thank you for your help.
 
I'm sorry. I haven't kept up with this thread. If this is redundant, just ignore it.

But . . . how fresh is your gasoline?
 
I forgot, the last fuel I put in was a gallon of regular 87 two Saturdays ago. I haven't been keeping the tank filled, but I don't know how that would matter. Thanks Larry
 
Wow, that was dumb.
I gapped the points while they were supposed to be touching instead of gapping them when they're supposed to be apart.

I'm doing a lot more research on what could be wrong with my tractor, and am considering building a decision tree/ flowchart. anyone interested in helping?
 
(quoted from post at 11:21:17 11/02/21) Wow, that was dumb.
I gapped the points while they were supposed to be touching instead of gapping them when they're supposed to be apart.

I'm doing a lot more research on what could be wrong with my tractor, and am considering building a decision tree/ flowchart. anyone interested in helping?

I don't have much experience with Ford's that are this old, but I do work on JD's this age. I'd try a couple of really basic diagnostic things to just see what happens. These are things that I like to start with when I'm diagnosing an engine to just rule out issues.

1. Remove one of the spark plugs and, WITH THE TRACTOR IN NEUTRAL, spin the starter over and press the plug against the block or head. Slowly pull the plug away and see how far the spark will jump. You ideally would want it to be able to jump at least a half inch. Make sure that you are holding the plug wire and keep your hand a fair distance from the plug. One time I did this and the spark jumped from the plug, to my finger, through me, and back to the key switch ;)

2. If it has spark, the next thing I would do would be dependent on how comfortable you are with ether. I know a lot of folks here have different opinions on ether and can probably comment on whether or not its safe to use for this machine. If you're ok with it, spin the motor over and simultaneously spray ether into the carb inlet and see if it'll fire at all. This will not tell you if you're in time, but it can help tell you if you're at least getting fire and enough compression in the cylinders. If you're not comfortable with ether, another option is to soak a small rag in gas and hold it up to the intake. The idea here is for the carb to draw the gas off the rag and into the motor. If you decide to go that route PLEASE be careful, because if the timing is off and it backfires, it can catch the rag on fire. If it were my tractor I would give it a very small amount of ether just to see if it will fire at all.

Results: If you don't have spark in test 1, or it won't jump the 1/2 inch gap, then you know you have a spark problem.

If you have spark in test 1, and use ether or gas in step 2 and it fires, then you know you have good spark and decent enough compression. It could be a fuel or timing issue at that point; depending on how much backfire or missing there is when it runs can be an indicator of whether you're in time or not.

Lastly, is the intake manifold on this tractor a part of the exhaust? I know you said you had the exhaust manifold off, but if the intake hasn't been inspected, it is entirely possible that some critter has built a nest inside and that could be impeding your air and fuel flow to the cylinders. Another simple thing to check.

Again the purpose of these suggestions isn't to fix your problem, but rather narrow it down. Hope this helps.
 
(quoted from post at 12:10:36 11/04/21) Hope this helps.

Awesome, thank you. I have seen the spark test you described recommended; Do you physically hold it by the boot while doing the test? Maybe I have a wood clamp that will work to learn from your electrifying experience ;)

The intake and exhaust manifold are one piece, and I believe they are on good and tight.
 
(quoted from post at 07:16:01 11/05/21)
(quoted from post at 12:10:36 11/04/21) Hope this helps.

Awesome, thank you. I have seen the spark test you described recommended; Do you physically hold it by the boot while doing the test? Maybe I have a wood clamp that will work to learn from your electrifying experience ;)

The intake and exhaust manifold are one piece, and I believe they are on good and tight.

Just hold the spark plug wire itself and let the plug dangle and touch the engine block. If it's got good spark it'll jump to the block even if you aren't putting much pressure on it.

The question isn't whether they're on tight or not, but rather did you check to make sure the intake manifold isn't blocked when you replaced it? If there is any sort of blockage in the intake it could cause the issues you are having. The ether test can help answer that question if you do it after confirming you have good spark. If good spark + ether == no firing, then you know you either have a compression issue or no fuel is getting to the cylinders.
 
Thank you.
I fried the solenoid or starter, will check what you're suggesting after that's resolved.
 
Last weekend, I checked the spark as recommended, using a wood clamp to hold the connected plug near the body and trying the starter; it had good blue spark. I used my inline spark tester on each plug and it tested good for each one.

This week I went to work on fuel. I already knew the line between tank and sediment bowl was not obstructed. But when I opened the carb drain, it did not flow well. I looked for a video on youtube of good flow but did not find one to compare. Adjusting the carb didn't improve it.

I don't have starter fluid to check for intake leaks, so I removed the manifold with the intent to redo the seal with some RTV. That's when I saw this:

Back when I installed the new manifold, I put the clip holding the throttle link over the (paper/whatever) gasket, which of course ruined the seal between the manifold and the block. So I pulled that out and installed the manifold correctly. Tractor started right up. Coughed up some smoke, then it warmed up and basically purred like a kitten.

I had a feeling it was something dumb. Thank you for your help!
 
(quoted from post at 21:24:10 12/18/21)

congratulations on your perseverance and your success and thanks for the notification.

And yes, showcrop, you had the correct diagnosis!
 

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