Ford 5000 hydraulic question

Hey guys im looking at purchasing a ford 5000 with a loader however my only problem with it is the tractor has no remotes the only hydraulics it has is for the loader. The hydraulic plate has two lines that run directly to the control valves up at the loader (it is a twin stick loader). So my thought is to get one of the hydraulic adapter plates to run the loader then adding two sets of remotes on top of that adapter plate. I have a newer ford new holland tractor that is set up this way but just want to make sure I can do it on the 5000. Ill add some pictures of the tractor so yall can see what I am talking about.

Thanks
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It hooked up to run loader. The valve on tractor has handle tied back so loader valve will work. There is a plate avaible that goes under that valve that will run loader and still have hyd on tractor. then
hoses can put on valve to run cyl on rear.
 
If you add the adapter plate to the tractor, by rights you'll need to convert the loader valve to a power beyond type. Better figure that
into the equation.
 
(quoted from post at 23:38:24 08/31/20) If you add the adapter plate to the tractor, by rights you'll need to convert the loader valve to a power beyond type. Better figure that
into the equation.

Bern, have you ever installed one?

They make adapter plates both with power beyond capability(HV5902) and without (HV4902). Even if you get one with the power beyond capability you do not have to use that capability. I installed the HV5902 adapter plate that has the power beyond capabilities on my '73 4000 to power a loader, and the instructions said that if you want to use it in normal open center mode without the power beyond that you just plug the R (Return) port and use only the P (Power) and PB (Power Beyond Return) ports.
 
(quoted from post at 03:55:25 09/01/20)
(quoted from post at 23:38:24 08/31/20) If you add the adapter plate to the tractor, by rights you'll need to convert the loader valve to a power beyond type. Better figure that
into the equation.

Bern, have you ever installed one?

They make adapter plates both with power beyond capability(HV5902) and without (HV4902). Even if you get one with the power beyond capability you do not have to use that capability. I installed the HV5902 adapter plate that has the power beyond capabilities on my '73 4000 to power a loader, and the instructions said that if you want to use it in normal open center mode without the power beyond that you just plug the R (Return) port and use only the P (Power) and PB (Power Beyond Return) ports.


Sean, so are you running power beyond or open center mode? Is there any benifit to switching to power beyond to run the loader like faster operation or greater lift capacity?
 
Yes, I have installed those plates, but it has been a few years. I was not aware that they offered them in a non power-beyond version.

By my way of thinking, any valve that you plumb upstream of one of those adapters has to be power beyond. You can't simply add valves
downstream in series in an open center system without long-term consequences. Any high pressure developed in a downstream valve subjects the
upstream valve to that same high pressure on the return side of the valve, which most control valves are not designed to see.
 
Sean, so are you running power beyond or open center mode? Is there any benifit to switching to power beyond to run the loader like faster operation or greater lift capacity?

Mine is setup in open center mode since I am only using it to power the loader currently. I went with the power beyond plate instea dof the single return port plate so I could add something in the future if I needed. The Power Beyond capability is only used when you have two or more separate control valves external to the tractor. There is no benefit to running a power beyond control valve on your loader and utilizing both return ports on the Power Beyond plate unless you have another external control valve for something in a addition to the loader, like a log splitter or a separate control valve for a grapple for the loader or something like that. The valves stacked on top of the adapter plate do not matter as they are automatically upstream from the loader valve and the tractor's internal hydraulic routing takes care of that, just like it takes care of the fact that the 3 point lift control valve is downstream from the hydraulic adapter plate, or the remote valves stacked on top if the adapter plate is not there. All flow from the pump goes up to the highest thing in the stack first, and then down to the next thing in the stack, and so on and then back down into the top plate and on to the 3 point control valve last.
 
By my way of thinking, any valve that you plumb upstream of one of those adapters has to be power beyond. You can't simply add valves downstream in series in an open center system without long-term consequences. Any high pressure developed in a downstream valve subjects the upstream valve to that same high pressure on the return side of the valve, which most control valves are not designed to see.

Bern, I'm not sure what you mean by "any valve that you plumb upstream of one of those adapters has to be power beyond". The only thing upstream would be the remote valve on the top of the stack and those are all standard open center valves. The external valves, like a loader or backhoe control valve are downstream from the Power port of the adapter plate. The flow from the pump goes to the top of the stack first, either the remote valve or the original blocking plate if there is no remote valve. Then the flow goes out the Power port of the adapter plate to the external valve(s). The Power beyond capable plate has two return ports, the one marked PB is for the main return flow from the last downstream external control valve, which is itself always a standard open center valve, no matter how many Power Beyond capable external valves there are in the circuit between the Power port on the plate and that last control valve in the external circuit. The secondary return port in the adapter plate, labelled R, is for the secondary return ports of all of the Power Beyond capable valves in the circuit, which get tee'd together, if there are more than one, to go into that port. That "R" port in the plate is a more restricted flow directly back to the sump and that path is only used by the fluid that is pushed out the back side of whichever cylinders might be receiving power at any particular time, an donly fro any control valves int he circuit that are actually configure with Power Beyond capability. The flow returning into the main "PB" return port on the adapter plate goes on down to power the 3 point control valve. Here is a basic diagram of a setup with 3 external valves, the first two are Power Beyond capable and the last one is open center. If you follow the logic and remove first one PB valve and then the other, you will see that the only difference to the adapter plate is that the "R" port on the PB plate is not needed, so that is why you plug it when you have onlyu one external valve and that one external valve should be open center without Power Beyond capability. I guess it wouldn't hurt for it to have Power Beyond, but it will just cost you that much more for the valve, and extra fittings and hoses that are not really needed.

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(quoted from post at 08:59:44 09/01/20)
Sean, so are you running power beyond or open center mode? Is there any benifit to switching to power beyond to run the loader like faster operation or greater lift capacity?

Mine is setup in open center mode since I am only using it to power the loader currently. I went with the power beyond plate instea dof the single return port plate so I could add something in the future if I needed. The Power Beyond capability is only used when you have two or more separate control valves external to the tractor. There is no benefit to running a power beyond control valve on your loader and utilizing both return ports on the Power Beyond plate unless you have another external control valve for something in a addition to the loader, like a log splitter or a separate control valve for a grapple for the loader or something like that. The valves stacked on top of the adapter plate do not matter as they are automatically upstream from the loader valve and the tractor's internal hydraulic routing takes care of that, just like it takes care of the fact that the 3 point lift control valve is downstream from the hydraulic adapter plate, or the remote valves stacked on top if the adapter plate is not there. All flow from the pump goes up to the highest thing in the stack first, and then down to the next thing in the stack, and so on and then back down into the top plate and on to the 3 point control valve last.

Thanks Sean
 


I always thought it was the reverse.. two power ports and one return....

on power beyond port must be returned to the plate....for the 3 point to work... as in the 49 series plate.. so you must always return to the plate or your 3 pt will not work..




the 59 series plate also had a power only tap out that could be returned to the oil fill port...... in addition to the pb and return port... and the 59 series worked well on the closed center systems with the power port...
 
Is that a drawing you drew yourself, or did that come from FNH? I don't recognize it. If you drew that, I'm afraid that you misunderstand
the theory of power beyond and why it's needed.

In the drawing, you show the outlet of the 3rd valve returning to adapter plate, presumably to power another downstream function (if that
were not the case, then one could simply run the outlet of the 3rd valve straight to the return port). If true, the 3rd valve HAS to be
power beyond capable, because any downstream function will subject the exhaust core of the 3rd valve to system pressure, which most valves
and spool seals cannot handle.

All of this discussion hinges on whether or not the factory remote valves are upstream or downstream of the adapter plate. I was always
under the impression that they were downstream, hence the need for a PB valve upstream.

If the factory remotes are truly upstream of the adapter plate, then there would have been no reason to include a PB fitting on the adapter
plate - the return from the loader valve could have been simply dumped into the return port. However, since, as I contend, the factory
remotes in fact are downstream of the adapter plate, a PB port on the loader valve is definitely needed.

I'm scheduled to visit my local NH dealer tomorrow morning regarding another matter on a SOS trans. While I'm there, I will hunt through
some old service bulletins and try to find the instructions for the #9613790 tapping manifold. As I recall, they were pretty thorough,
including the theory of operation. I'll report back what I find.
 
(quoted from post at 16:35:00 09/01/20) Is that a drawing you drew yourself, or did that come from FNH? I don't recognize it. If you drew that, I'm afraid that you misunderstand
the theory of power beyond and why it's needed.

In the drawing, you show the outlet of the 3rd valve returning to adapter plate, presumably to power another downstream function (if that
were not the case, then one could simply run the outlet of the 3rd valve straight to the return port). If true, the 3rd valve HAS to be
power beyond capable, because any downstream function will subject the exhaust core of the 3rd valve to system pressure, which most valves
and spool seals cannot handle.

All of this discussion hinges on whether or not the factory remote valves are upstream or downstream of the adapter plate. I was always
under the impression that they were downstream, hence the need for a PB valve upstream.

If the factory remotes are truly upstream of the adapter plate, then there would have been no reason to include a PB fitting on the adapter
plate - the return from the loader valve could have been simply dumped into the return port. However, since, as I contend, the factory
remotes in fact are downstream of the adapter plate, a PB port on the loader valve is definitely needed.

I'm scheduled to visit my local NH dealer tomorrow morning regarding another matter on a SOS trans. While I'm there, I will hunt through
some old service bulletins and try to find the instructions for the #9613790 tapping manifold. As I recall, they were pretty thorough,
including the theory of operation. I'll report back what I find.

The "PB" return port in the plate is connected internally to the port that goes down from the bottom of the plate to power the 3 point lift control valve, the same as a remote valve would provide downstream power to the 3 point lift, so yes, that return port form the third valve is powering something downstream, the 3 point lift. The "P" return port merely dumps to the sump, and as I said in an earlier post, is restricted and does not allow for as much flow as the "PB" port, and it should only get the fluid being pushed out the back side of any currently active cylinders from the first two valves in the picture.
 
Also, as I have said the 3 point lift control valve is downstream from anything in the stack on top, so if what you say is correct about a regular open center valve not being able to handle anything downstream, then are you sayng that all remote valves that stack on top of the top cover are power beyond valves? And also, even if the remote valves are PB valves, why is it OK to install a normal open center control valve for a loader on the remote ports of a remote valve if the 3 point system is downstream from both the remote valve and the loader valve?
 
So you agree with me that the adapter plate does in fact power a downstream function. You maintain that it's the 3-point, and I contend that
it's the remote valves along with the 3-point. Even if you're right, and it's only the 3-point, every time you lift something heavy with the
3-point cylinder, you are subjecting the exhaust core of valve #3 to pressures it was never designed to see. Over time, this causes spool
seals to leak, and in extreme cases, causes the housing to crack.

Again, the purpose of a power beyond valve is to supply oil under pressure to a downstream function. In this case, the loader valve needs to
have this capability.
 
I would have to assume that all factory remote valves are by design power beyond in their internal function.

As to your last question, if you are powering a loader valve off of a factory remote, it ends up being the last valve in the system before
oil is returned to the sump, so it does not need to be power beyond. The 3-point will not lift if the remote valve is supplying oil to the
loader valve, since it has priority over the 3-point to the oil. Stated another way, in the scenario you describe, oil for the 3-point does
not first go through the loader valve. The remote valve needs to be shut off for the 3-point to lift.
 
(quoted from post at 18:56:53 09/01/20) So you agree with me that the adapter plate does in fact power a downstream function. You maintain that it's the 3-point, and I contend that
it's the remote valves along with the 3-point. Even if you're right, and it's only the 3-point, every time you lift something heavy with the
3-point cylinder, you are subjecting the exhaust core of valve #3 to pressures it was never designed to see. Over time, this causes spool
seals to leak, and in extreme cases, causes the housing to crack.

Again, the purpose of a power beyond valve is to supply oil under pressure to a downstream function. In this case, the loader valve needs to
have this capability.

So you are saying that the remote valves have power beyond capability since they provide power downstream to the 3 point lift? If so, then why is it OK for a remote valve to power a normal open center loader valve? As the loader valve is also upstream from the 3 point system.
 
Sean,

I believe that you are contradicting yourself in your last post. You said (paraphrased): "If the remote valve is power beyond, then why is
it OK to power a loader valve downstream?" Well, that's the very definition of power beyond, at least on the surface.

That said, even if the factory remote was NOT power beyond, it wouldn't matter, because in your scenario, oil is being taken from its power
section, not its exhaust section. There's a big difference between having 2500 PSI of oil in the center of a valve versus the exhaust area
of a valve. In the latter, the spool seals cannot handle that kind of back pressure.

With all due respect Sean, I don't think you have the concept of a power beyond valve fully understood. To give the simplest definition I
can think of, a power beyond valve provides high pressure oil straight through it (meaning, when it's in neutral) to downstream valve(s) in
series without damaging it. By contrast, a non-PB valve cannot tolerate high pressure oil on its return side.

I'm heading to the NH dealer here in a couple of hours. I hope to find more info on the "tapping manifold" while I'm there.
 
Bern,

I guess my question could have been more clear. If the 3 point lift is downstream from the remote valve, therefore it is downstream from the external loader valve that is being powered by the remote valve as well, so why is it OK to have the 3 point control valve downstream from the loader valve if it is only open center and not power beyond?
 
Because when the 3-point is needed, the remote valve has to be shut off (put in neutral). The 3-point will not work at all if oil is being
sent to the loader valve. Therefore, the loader valve has nothing to do with it.
 
Well the instructions that came with my PB adapter plate said specifically to use th ePB port as th ereturn when using it with a single open center external valve, and to plug the "R" return port. They also said that when using multiple external valves that all but the last one needed to be PB valves and the last one should be regular open center like the drawing that I posted. It works fine that way (single open center external valve returning to the PB port) on my '73 4000 to run a loader and I can raise and lower the 3 point and move the cylinders on the loader at the same time.
 
I have 3 replies:

1) I struck out at the NH dealer digging through old service bulletins trying to find the instructions for the original tapping manifold
when it first came out. I then asked the parts guy to see if he can find the instruction sheet that goes with it. I'll let you know if I
have any success.

2) Is there any chance you can copy the instructions you're talking about and share them here? I'd love to see them.

3) It is possible to use a normal valve where a PB one should be with success. I've seen it done many times. The problem usually shows up
at some point in the future with leaking spool seals. The amount of time required to make this happen depends on how often, how long, and
how high of pressure a downstream function is used.
 
I don't know if I still have those instructions. It was at least 8 years ago that I added the adapter plate and loader to the tractor, and I can't remembr if I kept the instructions. If I did they would be in any one of a number of boxes. I'll try to see if I can find them, and if I can I'll scan them in and post them back here. I did a Google search and I can't find anyone else having posted them on-line either. They were so simple I don't know if anyone would think they were worth the effort.

They basically said:

1. If you don't have an external valve connected you can't simply plug the ports, you have either remove the adapter plate from the tractor or loop the P and PB ports together and plug the R port.

2. If you are only running a single open center valve, you power it from the P port and route the return port form the valve to the PB port in the adapter plate, and plug the R port.

3. If you are powering multiple valves you set it up like my picture, or alternately the last valve could also be a Power Beyond valve instead of a regular open center valve, in which case you would connect the PB port of the last valve to the PB port in the adapter plate and tee the return port of the last valve in with the others connected to the R port.
 
My local N.H. parts guy found the instructions for the OEM plate. I’ll
post them later on tonight when I’m at my computer and not on my
phone. I’ll start a new post at the same time since this one is getting
down there.

I do hope you can find the instructions for your manifold, because
they definitely contradict the instructions for the OEM one. Either you
misunderstood the instructions; or there’s something different about
the way it’s ported internally.
 

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