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Need to Pull it to Start My 3000 Diesel

H

Hardwood62

Member
Hoping someone here might have had this happen and figured out the solution ... I seem to have plenty of pressure when I open the relief valve on the fuel pump and turn it over, but when I disconnect the lines from the injectors it will not pump fuel out of the lines - If I pull it I can get the fuel to come out but it takes a good 50-100 yard run?? Hook them back up and it starts ... the next day it has to be done all over again. When it is running throttle response seems normal, I have made sure all lines are tight. This tractor always started like a dream so am baffled as to what happened, it ran perfect last fall??
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
 
Here is a picture of the same pump I have.
cvphoto51500.png
 

This is frequently due to slow cranking speed. A diesel will crank until the starter burns out at just below the minimum speed to make adequate compression to fire it off.
 


could be a lot of things... but if you crank and no fluid comes out of the injector lines, I'm thinking you have a worn out head on the pump that need to replaced to get more pressure at low speeds..

There was a series of pumps that came out with a soft head material that worn out much faster.

and or pump is worn out and or loosing prime via leaks,,,

you describe pulling starting works but takes a while, meaning that the above is true, or you have low compression.. but with low compression, the pump should at least dribble when cranking at the lines at the injectors.

A injector pump person may chime in here..
 
Ran fine when last used prior to this spring - seems to have a lot of pressure at the bleeder valve - squirts pretty far - about the same as I remember when I did it last year. No visible leeks on pump. Do not use the tractor very much - couple acres of food plots so pulling it works ... for now but appreciate the ideas.
 
Good pressure at the bleeder valve versus good pressure at the injectors are two different things, because these pressures are developed by two different internal pumps. The pressure needed to open and fire the injectors are a minimum 3000 PSI, whereas internal transfer pump pressure is closer to 100 PSI.

That said, if you can't even get fuel out of open injection lines, I would lean towards a sticking metering valve or high pressure plungers internally.
 
The mechanic I use has installed the Atlantic starters in the link on two of my tractors and it really improved the cranking. Also a good high capacity battery helps.
starter
 
Starts great once I pull it to get fuel to the injectors - I don't notice any change in turnover speed since it last started on its own - battery is strong - lots of cranking power. I am thinking it is a fuel delivery problem ... will be taking out the filter in the tank - right after I pull it to get fuel to the injectors and then use the starter, the throttle response seems lagging, but only for a minute or so - then it responds normally?
 

That and the reduction type starters.. I ordered one yesterday to try on a 5000... it has a bit of wear on the pump and takes a bit of cranking to finally get fuel to the injectors, but the existing starter is only good for a few fast cranks then slows down. I though I might see if these high torque, reduction starters are worth their salt.
 
(quoted from post at 08:10:53 07/27/20) Starts great once I pull it to get fuel to the injectors - I don't notice any change in turnover speed since it last started on its own - battery is strong - lots of cranking power. I am thinking it is a fuel delivery problem ... will be taking out the filter in the tank - right after I pull it to get fuel to the injectors and then use the starter, the throttle response seems lagging, but only for a minute or so - then it responds normally?
Click to expand...

Hardwood, when you got the battery tested what % of the original CCA did they tell you it tested at?
 
I had the same issue with a injection pump on a 72 3000. I went ahead and replaced the injection pump and it runs great now. I really want to try to save the other pump though. Gelled diesel likely started out my trouble. Dad forgot to winterize it.

Were you ever able to get yours straightened out?
 
Put NOCO booster on it to make sure it was getting full power - didn't help. When I pulled it I was going fast enough to get it to pump the times before - now nothing. Ordered a rebuild kit.
 
Pulled the pump this past weekend and have a rebuild kit on order - thought I would give the kit a try $12 verses a new pump $500. Don't really need the tractor till spring - have a gas WD that always starts!
 
Pulled filter, springs and metering tube out of the fuel input port on the rear of the pump ... the filter/screen was completely blocked, I am pretty sure that was the main culprit but cleaned all the parts up and reassembled. I decided not to disassemble the front and top cover ... didn't have any leaks so I figured if it ain't broke - don't disassemble. Have not had a chance to put in tractor yet since it is at my cabin. I did noticed that the little metal plunger in the metering tube had a tendency to stick so I made sure it moved freely in the tube. Crossing my fingers!
 

I just went through most of mine and I think I have it likd.

I had pulled the 'lift pump' / inlet plate before and everything looked fine in there on mine.

But when I hand spun it feeding fuel, nothing came out at injectors.

Upon disassembly, i noticed most of the little buckets / plungers were not moving while spinning.

I didn't remove the shaft or anything, I just sprayed carb cleaner and worked them around while slowly rotating the engine-side drive shaft.

I did remove the head on the other side, pulled all the injector line fittings, and rotated each to the inject position and sprayed carb cleaner back through it, then blew compressed air back through it.

I blew out as much as I could with carb cleaner and then compressed air and had let it soak for a few days full of diesel winterizer.

After reassembly, I now get fuel shooting out each injector outlet when rotating the shaft and manually feeding / pouring diesel treat.

Also, I can hear all the little buckets clattering as they are depressed and then fall.

I have not installed it on the tractor yet, but will report back the result... perhaps tomorrow.

I hope you have good luck with yours! Will check back to see how it turns out for ya.
 
That sounds like the same situation with mine - I have been waiting on new vanes thinking that was the reason it would not squirt much out of the injection ports when I rotated the shaft but I think this is probably the real problem ... not sure about the rotating of the injector ports, but am going to give this a try.
Thanks!
 
I may have done some no-no's on the injector outlet side, but it wasn't working, so I wasn't worried about breaking it.

Now, when it goes back on the tractor, I will a pair in of dikes in hand ready to cut that fuel line and step back on the off chance that something I did could cause this thing to run away, but I don't suspect that will be an issue.

That said, the other part I cleaned out that I was trying to explain went about as follows (forgive me for not knowing all the correct terms here...):

The section of the pump that the injector line fittings thread in to can be quite easily removed. There are three bolts that hold it. One is the bleed valve, one is a 9/16" bolt, and the other (in my case anyway) is on the bottom of the IP and appears to be a timing advance of sorts with one bolt and one capped nut holding it on.

With all that removed (and a new gasket at the ready for the little timing advance thingy), the injector head will just slide out.

You can't really put it back in the wrong way. The Gear shaft inside is master keyed, and the bolt holes only line up one way, plus the cut our for the fuel shutoff leaves an outline that can't be mistaken.

With that head off, I used a small small puncture wound tool placed down into the hole in the base of one of the injector ports and rotated slowly until the small puncture wound tool dropped down. This tells me the port is open to send fuel to that injector. Pull the small puncture wound tool, spray carb cleaner down in the hole with a straw, blow out with compressed air, go to the next injector hole. I would get a mist out on the other side of the head each time.

There is also a big skinny O-ring on the head that you can replace with this off.


I think the most tricky part for me was getting the big spring under the top cover back on properly. Mine was on the middle hole on both ends (make sure you note which holes yours is in; three holes on each side, so 9 settings, 8 opportunities to get it wrong!). But even after I got it back on, the first time, there was some snag in the throttle motion in one spot because (as I found) the spring end was not far enough into the hole. I did finally get it, but I had to take the cover and spring off and on a few times to get it into it's happy place.

Also make sure the little dowel/nub on the fuel shut off lever goes into it's slot on the sliding operator. I managed to put it together once with that nub pressing down on top of the slide operator, and that would not have worked.

My methods fixed SOMETHING, but I do not yet know if it is still broken overall. Will swap it on today and report back.
 
OK - think I understand now, I just pulled one of the ports off the pump and tried to put something down it but would not go through so I stopped trying, there appears to be something spring loaded in the port?? I could see it move a little when I sprayed air into the opening of the port that I removed. Is that the port you are referring too or is it the port in the pump body that the fuel line port screws into? I have not removed the rear portion of the pump ... I think they call it the transfer pump, hoping I could avoid it but maybe not. I have seen a couple of Youtube videos and it doesn't look too difficult to remove.
Appreciate your explaining what you did - I have never worked on one of these either so it is all new!
 
I read back through my post, and I'm laughin a little bit.

I had called it a P Rick tool, and the forum replaced every instance of that with 'small puncture wound tool'... hah.
 
I did pull the rear portion of the pump ... I believe it is called the transfer pump and disassembled the part containing the rollers and cleaned them up, they were pretty gummed up, but still no able to hear any rattling? I broke the vanes trying to get them out and the new ones won't be here until Saturday. But being that everything was really gummed up hopefully cleaning it up good and new vanes will solve the problem. I realized after I had it apart what you were talking about by inserting a pick tool ... in the body of the transfer pump, mine didn't seem to have any real blockage but maybe.
 
The the two little plastic transfer pump vanes? I also broke one of those and have the pair on order.

The part that i cleaned up to get the 'rattles' is little radial engine looking bit at the very back. Item 6 in the image. They were stuck in different positions when i first took it apart. Sprayed in some carb cleaner and worked them around and they freely slide up and down while rotating it now.

I have a '72 3000 (which this injection pump came off of) and a 80 something 340 that I just acquired that also was not getting fuel to the injectors. They both use the same pump.

I put a new pump on my 3000 (it's running great now) and just got the old pump off the 340 this evening. I will put the cleaned up pump from the 3000 on tomorrow (now today). The 340 has a Ford loader on it and the limited access seemed to have added about an hour to the pump removal compared to my 3000.

The pump that was on the 3000 was working fine before the gelled diesel, so hopefully it will run well now that it's been cleaned up and had a bunch of gaskets and seals replaced. I may rob the transfer pump vanes from it if they come out in one piece, then order one more rebuild kit and keep a spare sitting around.
mvphoto60109.gif
 
I see now what you are referring to - I believe that is the governor portion of the pump - was thinking it was at the back end of the pump #53C. I wasn't going to remove the front but since I have it out I might ... might just try and shoot some carb cleaner up in there and see what happens. I spent a lot of time spraying cleaner in the ports in 53C so hopefully everything in the transfer pump portion is clean now.
Appreciate your help!
 
(quoted from post at 10:16:50 08/11/20) I see now what you are referring to - I believe that is the governor portion of the pump - was thinking it was at the back end of the pump #53C. I wasn't going to remove the front but since I have it out I might ... might just try and shoot some carb cleaner up in there and see what happens. I spent a lot of time spraying cleaner in the ports in 53C so hopefully everything in the transfer pump portion is clean now.
Appreciate your help!
Click to expand...

I'm not having luck with the 340 yet... It seems to have poor fuel flow from the tank, so I'm draining it to clean the fuel valve screen in the bottom of the tank.

I think if it doesn't start tomorrow I will order a new injection pump for it :/
 
If you were getting the squirting from the injector ports on the pump I would think the pump is working. When you disconnect the inlet line are you getting a good flow? I did replace the in-tank filter last year due to a flow problem but it was obvious when I disconnected the line ... flow was real slow. I bought the stuff to make the fuel filter in the tank accessible ... connector and about 18" of line, plan is to be able to pull up the filter to the tank opening in order to replace it ... saw this as a recommendation on one of the forums but have not done it yet.
 
I'm still holding my breath for the IP. It did have flow on the bench.

The flow rate was very slow. It took over 3 hours to drain about 4 gallons. When I got the fuel cut off valve off last night it was FULL of scale. I spent the rest of the time removing the shroud from over the tank.

Today I will take the tank off and get to work getting the tank cleaned out. Not sure if I should try a rust soak remover or put some pea gravel in and shake it. This one has a pretty big tank on it!

I like that idea about setting the the filter to pull from the top.

I will see what I can figure out when the new shut off valve arrives. The prior owner had broken off a section of the old one so it had no filter.
 
Here is the link to the article on adding a remote fuel filter

https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/discussion-on-bleeding-a-diesel.222367/
 
Your original post on this topic is a couple of weeks old.
Did you know that almost No one who reads this board in Classic View even sees these recent posts? And did you know that that's a majority of us? I just clicked on Todays Posts in Classic and saw this - something I don't often do.
If you want everyone to read your posts - and offer help and advice - you should learn how Classic works. You are reaching less than half of us.
 
If the fuel valve has no filter you are part way there with putting in a remote filter - to make it work the filter gets removed from the valve and a barbed fitting is JB Welded in its place and that is where the long filter line is attached.

Decided to go ahead and order new injector tips ... figured since the tractor is down might as well replace those too. With all the gummed up residue in the pump I have to believe the injectors are probably dirty too.
 
I need to do some research on how these injectors are installed and put together. I should probably be considering doing that on this 340, too.

I removed the tank last night and started cleaning it up. Got a BUNCH of scale out of it.

Unfortunately, when I went to dose it with rust dissolve, it immediately presented with a leak at the tank seam. Now I have to decide how to patch the tank (or maybe to just buy a new one...).

It seems to have a lot of steel left in it overall, but I want to get a good permanent fix on that seam. Maybe I will silicone seal it from the outside and use the rust solvent, then go back with epoxy outside and an internal epoxy like POR15. I figure it will take about a week whether I try to fix this one (dissolving rust, cleaning, coating, curing), or buy a new one (shipping). Might save about $100 if I fix it.

I think I will try to feed it diesel from a coffee can first, and if it runs, then I'll buy a tank. Otherwise, I'll be buying an IP and fixing the tank.
mvphoto60198.jpg


mvphoto60199.jpg


mvphoto60200.jpg
 
Darn it on the tank leak - I once did a re-coating of a tank on a 3 wheeler that turned out pretty good - was still not leaking when I sold it several years later. Can't remember the name of the coating kit I used but I am sure they are prominent in the motorcycle market. For $100 I would probably just replace - a lot of work to do over again.
 
Here is a good video on the injectors - I decided to go with just replacing the tips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd9dfmAA7WY&t=292s
 
Well... I came up with another plan and decided to go ahead and try to patch this tank. I think it's going to work out okay.

I took an air chisel with a flat faced round tip (wish I had a needle scaler) and bounced it around the bottom of the tank looking for thin spots. Found about three and punched through them all pretty well.

Then (after rinsing out the tank with water 3 or 4 times and shaking a chain around inside in between), I set to work welding up the holes. I also welded along the bottom-most extent of the seam, and then made a few cuts down through the tank seam and welded back up through them to create a seal.

I painted it (slightly the wrong color; New Holland yellow vs. Ford Industrial yellow) on faith and then closed it up and added rust remover to the tank.

No leaks so far!

I'll try to get as much rust out of the tank as possible and probably do an epoxy coat inside.
mvphoto60217.jpg


mvphoto60218.jpg


mvphoto60219.jpg


mvphoto60220.jpg
 

The injector nozzles doesn't seem like to bad of a job. I went ahead and ordered the parts and seals to do this.


You will get to test yours out this Saturday? I really hope it fires right off for you.

After reading a bit more about the governor, I'm thinking about taking my IP off and apart one more time, and completely pulling the governor to allow me to clean it better (and also replace the press in seal under the gear mount).
 
Received my vanes yesterday will be testing the IP today - hope it squirts! If it doesn't I don't have a clue what could be the problem. Will probably go ahead and order a new IP. Your tank repair looks good! Hope it holds up for you. My Injector tips and new fuel filter should be here today, will need to wait until next week to put them in since tractor is at the cabin.
 
(quoted from post at 14:16:50 08/14/20) New pump on order - could not get the IP to squirt ... only a little fuel and lots a bubbles.
Click to expand...

Bummer...

I'm not getting consistent behavior out of mine.

At least it has good fuel flow from the tank now!

Were you able to rebuild your injectors without issue?
 
Still waiting for new IP to arrive - then will head up to cabin and install the IP and Injectors. I am still planning on working on the old IP ... there just doesn't seem to be that much that can go wrong with it but it sure has me stumped now, was working great last summer - just can't believe something other that a blockage of some sort would cause it to go bad.
Good to hear your tank is not leaking.
Now I got to go and fix a leaking hydraulic connection on my skid steer.
 
I'm still going to tinker with mine as well. Will pull it and try cleaning it up really well one more time.

I picked up what appears to be about a '68 Case 580CK yesterday. It's a real basket case I think. Paid $500 for it though.

Not running, 4cy diesel, has loader and backhoe, all of the hydraulic lines are pretty much shot. Injection pump is shot. Starter solenoid had burned through. Not sure if it's the shuttle shift, or dry clutch type trans... I initially bought it thinking I would just snag the backhoe off it and sell the rest. BUT... the more I read about a Case 580, the more it seems like it could be a good cheap and simple unit to have around.
 
Sounds like you got yourself a "real" project with the Case :)

Got the IP installed today and 2 of the 3 injector tips changed - could not get the rear most one out but did not try real hard ... did not want to break it before I could try the IP. Turns out I guess that it is not all that difficult to get an injector out - will remove both studs (one came out anyway) and will try tapping it back and forth to loosen it up and use some penetrating fluid, I came across this on another forum and heard of others doing this.

BTW ... THE FORD STARTED WITH THE NEW IP!
 
You got it running again! Congratulations!

Hoping for good things with mine. I spent a bit today working on the loader rams on the 3000.

I have a complete top end gasket set for the 340. I think i will pull the head to check the bores and valve seats before buying an IP for it.
 
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