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Ford 4000 Industrial - engine clacking got loud

D

Discerner

Member
Just bought my first tractor - 1962 4cyl gas - and today when idling a clacking noise got louder and louder and engine quit. Oil level is good - engine has a lot of blow by. When I drove it up the hill at delivery under load I first noticed the clacking. What's my first step in diagnosis?
Thanks, Jim :roll:
 

I would... pull out all the plugs..

run a compression test, while see that there is some oil pressure that comes up while cranking.


The results will give you a fairly good look at engine condition. Post back results....

As you said, make sure oil levels are ok, oil is not white or milkshake color, radiator is full and no oil in it...

and listening for unusual noises while cranking for the compression test.
 
(quoted from post at 13:37:39 11/21/19) Just bought my first tractor - 1962 4cyl gas - and today when idling a clacking noise got louder and louder and engine quit. Oil level is good - engine has a lot of blow by. When I drove it up the hill at delivery under load I first noticed the clacking. What's my first step in diagnosis?
Thanks, Jim :roll:
Click to expand...

Advice above is all good. Another thing that I learned the hard way, from some other good people here, is that you can check for coolant in the oil fairly easily. After the machine has been parked and off for a while (a few hours would be nice), loosen the oil drain plug very, very slowly by hand. If you start to get a watery drip, stop... let it drip into a small container until it stops dripping, or until the container is full.

Look at what's in the container. Is it more watery than oily? Is it maybe even green, like antifreeze?

If so, you have coolant in your oil.


The idea is that coolant is usually mostly water, and water is heavier than oil, so it will go to the bottom of the oil pan. It also is less viscous than oil; so it will drip out of the drain plug before it is fully removed by seeping past the loose threads.
 
Great Tip! - I am having a helluva time with that oil drain plug - could not budge it loose and don't have the square head wrench. I was thinking of removing entire oil pan to inspect after compression test. Pan looks easy enough to remove.
 
I would... pull out all the plugs..

run a compression test, while see that there is some oil pressure that comes up while cranking.


The results will give you a fairly good look at engine condition. Post back results....

As you said, make sure oil levels are ok, oil is not white or milkshake color, radiator is full and no oil in it...

and listening for unusual noises while cranking for the compression test.

**************************************************
Compression test was successful and all cylinders have almost 120 psi each. No clacking or odd noises during test.

Fluids all good (on milky in oil or oil in antifreeze. (although antifreeze a bit low- will add tomorrow) but I remember now I hadn't run it very long and it seemed like it was overheating. Gurgled a bit after it died and smoke coming out a cap on side of head?. (have not tried to start it yet).

Found out my oil pressure gauge doesn't work and maybe having an oil pump/pressure issue causing the valves to clack?? Where does the gauge get it's reading from (sender location)?

Will follow up some more after weather improves.
 
(quoted from post at 17:26:31 11/21/19) I would... pull out all the plugs..

run a compression test, while see that there is some oil pressure that comes up while cranking.


The results will give you a fairly good look at engine condition. Post back results....

As you said, make sure oil levels are ok, oil is not white or milkshake color, radiator is full and no oil in it...

and listening for unusual noises while cranking for the compression test.

**************************************************
Compression test was successful and all cylinders have almost 120 psi each. No clacking or odd noises during test.

Fluids all good (on milky in oil or oil in antifreeze. (although antifreeze a bit low- will add tomorrow) but I remember now I hadn't run it very long and it seemed like it was overheating. Gurgled a bit after it died and smoke coming out a cap on side of head?. (have not tried to start it yet).

Found out my oil pressure gauge doesn't work and maybe having an oil pump/pressure issue causing the valves to clack?? Where does the gauge get it's reading from (sender location)?

Will follow up some more after weather improves.
Click to expand...
mvphoto45600.jpg


Just wanted to add a picture of "Benny the Beast" to learn how to add pics. Lol.
 

The oil pressure fitting is on the right behind the hydraulic pump. You really should check the oil before running it more. Here is how you get the plug out. Put your bottle jack under the plug on a block with a piece of hardwood on top of the jack. Put your big pipe wrench on the plug then pump your jack to exert plenty of pressure on the wrench. Then turn the wrench and plug with a pipe if necessary. The reason that the plug is so tight is that the last time that the oil was drained there was no new gasket available, so don't do this without a new gasket or material to make one from.
 
(quoted from post at 06:31:42 11/22/19)
The oil pressure fitting is on the right behind the hydraulic pump. You really should check the oil before running it more. Here is how you get the plug out. Put your bottle jack under the plug on a block with a piece of hardwood on top of the jack. Put your big pipe wrench on the plug then pump your jack to exert plenty of pressure on the wrench. Then turn the wrench and plug with a pipe if necessary. The reason that the plug is so tight is that the last time that the oil was drained there was no new gasket available, so don't do this without a new gasket or material to make one from.
Click to expand...
Yes, the plan is to drain the oil and inspect everything to make sure I find the cause b4 running anymore. I stopped immediately and did not attempt restart since. I will locate that fitting. Thanks for the jack tip! I am in NH too btw!
 
(quoted from post at 06:52:36 11/22/19)
I am just outside of Manchester.
Click to expand...
Just outside of Keene. Here is a pic of the line coming from my pressure gauge I just found hanging. It looks like it should go where someone put that brass plug behind the oil dip. Is that correct? Pic might be sideways - ugh.
mvphoto45601.jpg
 

good compression tells us... no blown head gasket, no cracked rings or pistons, so upper end it good. no discoloration of oil or no oil floating in radiator, also good... as to a bit low, they run about a half inch above the coils,, as the water expands when hot and will expell from the cap and then when it cools down it finds its magic spot or level. If you fill it to top, next time it will just expand out the cap again. So that is not necessarily bad.

Check the oil pressure and report back next... no oil pressure, means your lower end is damaged or bearing damaged or crank scored up... If you good good oil pressure, then its needs more diagnostics,, listen closely to where the noise is comming from... bottom end? wrist pin? rocker arms..
 
(quoted from post at 08:00:21 11/22/19)
good compression tells us... no blown head gasket, no cracked rings or pistons, so upper end it good. no discoloration of oil or no oil floating in radiator, also good... as to a bit low, they run about a half inch above the coils,, as the water expands when hot and will expell from the cap and then when it cools down it finds its magic spot or level. If you fill it to top, next time it will just expand out the cap again. So that is not necessarily bad.

Check the oil pressure and report back next... no oil pressure, means your lower end is damaged or bearing damaged or crank scored up... If you good good oil pressure, then its needs more diagnostics,, listen closely to where the noise is comming from... bottom end? wrist pin? rocker arms..
Click to expand...

Thanks! I will report back in a few days after I get the oil pressure gauge reconnected and let you know.
 
(quoted from post at 08:10:24 11/22/19)
(quoted from post at 08:00:21 11/22/19)
good compression tells us... no blown head gasket, no cracked rings or pistons, so upper end it good. no discoloration of oil or no oil floating in radiator, also good... as to a bit low, they run about a half inch above the coils,, as the water expands when hot and will expell from the cap and then when it cools down it finds its magic spot or level. If you fill it to top, next time it will just expand out the cap again. So that is not necessarily bad.

Check the oil pressure and report back next... no oil pressure, means your lower end is damaged or bearing damaged or crank scored up... If you good good oil pressure, then its needs more diagnostics,, listen closely to where the noise is comming from... bottom end? wrist pin? rocker arms..
Click to expand...

Thanks! I will report back in a few days after I get the oil pressure gauge reconnected and let you know.
Click to expand...

Yes, that plug is where the capillary tube goes.
 

Ok - good. Just ordered a new gauge and copper capillary tube with fittings. Will report back when it gets here. Thanks everyone!
 

I am working on getting the two forward bolts out of the oil pan and they are blocked by a cross member? Is there any tricks to get these out?
Also here is a pic of the valves. My son who works on engines said it looks like some "keepers" are missing. Does that make sense?

mvphoto45764.jpg
 

Discerner, it sounds like as on many other Fords the bolster is in the way. To get it out of the way you simply remove two of the probably 4 bolts and insert two that are four inches longer. Then remove the other two, and pull the bolster ahead, sliding it on the two long ones. You will want to have the front jacked up so that there is just a little weight on the front wheels.
 

Thanks showcrop. Sounds right but I'm not quite following you based on what I see. There are two bolts on each left and right side of frame holding it as well as two bolts in the middle of the cross "bolster" which I removed - see pic - but nothing loosened with those two removed. Will tackle tomorrow.
mvphoto45767.jpg
 

In that picture, is that a crack in the ibeam?

And is that part of the bolster or part of the loader mount, thats in the way?
 
(quoted from post at 07:29:14 11/26/19)
In that picture, is that a crack in the ibeam?

And is that part of the bolster or part of the loader mount, thats in the way?
Click to expand...

I thought it was a crack too from the pic but my son said it was a shadow from a piece of crap hanging and I verified that. lol.

After looking more closely it is part of the loader mount cross brace. Can that be removed by the 4 side bolts which are connecting the loader side frames? see pic. sorry the pics keep turning during upload.
mvphoto45783.jpg
 

So the brush guard lower mount at loader frame is welded in place and blocking the bolster - or whatever it's called that is blocking the two front oil pan bolts from being removed - from sliding forward!

We are going to cut off the oil pan bolt heads off to remove the pan and then remove the remaining bolt and cut an access into the bolster for installing the new pan bolts. :evil: :evil:

What should be a 15 min job is turning into 2 days and it's getting cold now. I wanted this for snow removal too! Oh well. Vent over.
 

Discerner, Since you have good compression you apparently caught it before major damage took place, but it could still be bad. A broken rod bolt generally calls for a rebuild which is what 90% of the guys here will tell you since it is not their money, but one should take into account what the planned use of the tractor is. If it is going to be very little you may get by with just a new rod and all new bearings and seals. The deciding factor is the condition of the crank which probably is not significantly damaged at this point. You will need to remove the head anyway, and then you are close to having the crank out anyway. You will need an automotive machine shop and there should be some in your area but if not, I recommend Nashua Engine Rebuilders. 603-883-1200. Mark and Jesse.
 
(quoted from post at 14:13:50 12/03/19)
Discerner, Since you have good compression you apparently caught it before major damage took place, but it could still be bad. A broken rod bolt generally calls for a rebuild which is what 90% of the guys here will tell you since it is not their money, but one should take into account what the planned use of the tractor is. If it is going to be very little you may get by with just a new rod and all new bearings and seals. The deciding factor is the condition of the crank which probably is not significantly damaged at this point. You will need to remove the head anyway, and then you are close to having the crank out anyway. You will need an automotive machine shop and there should be some in your area but if not, I recommend Nashua Engine Rebuilders. 603-883-1200. Mark and Jesse.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark and Jesse - I bought this with all the money I had and now it will be a slow project to recover from. My son who just swapped out an engine and rebuilds small engines wants to know if all looks good from the bottom can the bearings and bolts be replaced without removing the engine at least to repair to get me through winter - needed it to scoop snow?
 
(quoted from post at 14:25:59 12/03/19)
(quoted from post at 14:13:50 12/03/19)
Discerner, Since you have good compression you apparently caught it before major damage took place, but it could still be bad. A broken rod bolt generally calls for a rebuild which is what 90% of the guys here will tell you since it is not their money, but one should take into account what the planned use of the tractor is. If it is going to be very little you may get by with just a new rod and all new bearings and seals. The deciding factor is the condition of the crank which probably is not significantly damaged at this point. You will need to remove the head anyway, and then you are close to having the crank out anyway. You will need an automotive machine shop and there should be some in your area but if not, I recommend Nashua Engine Rebuilders. 603-883-1200. Mark and Jesse.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark and Jesse - I bought this with all the money I had and now it will be a slow project to recover from. My son who just swapped out an engine and rebuilds small engines wants to know if all looks good from the bottom can the bearings and bolts be replaced without removing the engine at least to repair to get me through winter - needed it to scoop snow?
Click to expand...

This is Colin. Mark and Jesse are the guys at Nashua Engine. It is possible to do it in frame. If the mains and the crank look good and are within spec when plasti-gauged, then you can get by without removing the crank which gets into other tougher things. You can get by with just one rod and its bearings. bearings are not normally sold by each but a machine shop can get them for you. It all depends on the condition of the crank journal and the main bearings.
 
(quoted from post at 15:02:02 12/03/19)
(quoted from post at 14:25:59 12/03/19)
(quoted from post at 14:13:50 12/03/19)
Discerner, Since you have good compression you apparently caught it before major damage took place, but it could still be bad. A broken rod bolt generally calls for a rebuild which is what 90% of the guys here will tell you since it is not their money, but one should take into account what the planned use of the tractor is. If it is going to be very little you may get by with just a new rod and all new bearings and seals. The deciding factor is the condition of the crank which probably is not significantly damaged at this point. You will need to remove the head anyway, and then you are close to having the crank out anyway. You will need an automotive machine shop and there should be some in your area but if not, I recommend Nashua Engine Rebuilders. 603-883-1200. Mark and Jesse.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark and Jesse - I bought this with all the money I had and now it will be a slow project to recover from. My son who just swapped out an engine and rebuilds small engines wants to know if all looks good from the bottom can the bearings and bolts be replaced without removing the engine at least to repair to get me through winter - needed it to scoop snow?
Click to expand...

This is Colin. Mark and Jesse are the guys at Nashua Engine. It is possible to do it in frame. If the mains and the crank look good and are within spec when plasti-gauged, then you can get by without removing the crank which gets into other tougher things. You can get by with just one rod and its bearings. bearings are not normally sold by each but a machine shop can get them for you. It all depends on the condition of the crank journal and the main bearings.
Click to expand...

LOL - oops - Thanks Colin. We'll get in there and check it out and let you know. I really appreciate the advice and help!
 

That is a rod bolt, do not start the engine again, if the other bolt breaks you'll have a rod stuck thru the side of the block.
I'd drop the pan and find which rod has the broken bolt. Then remove the rod cap and check the condition of the bearing and crank journal.
If the bearing looks ok and the rod journal isn't damaged or worn you may get by with just replacing the bolts and bearings.
If the crank is damaged or worn the engine will have to come off and be completely disassembled.
 
(quoted from post at 15:39:22 12/03/19)
That is a rod bolt, do not start the engine again, if the other bolt breaks you'll have a rod stuck thru the side of the block.
I'd drop the pan and find which rod has the broken bolt. Then remove the rod cap and check the condition of the bearing and crank journal.
If the bearing looks ok and the rod journal isn't damaged or worn you may get by with just replacing the bolts and bearings.
If the crank is damaged or worn the engine will have to come off and be completely disassembled.
Click to expand...

Thank you!! keep you posted....
 
(quoted from post at 15:39:22 12/03/19)
That is a rod bolt, do not start the engine again, if the other bolt breaks you'll have a rod stuck thru the side of the block.
I'd drop the pan and find which rod has the broken bolt. Then remove the rod cap and check the condition of the bearing and crank journal.
If the bearing looks ok and the rod journal isn't damaged or worn you may get by with just replacing the bolts and bearings.
If the crank is damaged or worn the engine will have to come off and be completely disassembled.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I discovered this was a previously repaired situation! I found a repaired hole in block behind starter motor for same piston that is the issue now and the crank journal is worn as well as rod bearings. I do not have the money or facilities to do an engine overhaul now, so my question is this... What size bearing should I use to get me through the winter until I can decide what to do. The rod cap was good and the second rod bolt was bent but still holding the cap on. It's the 172cid 4cyl gas engine.. Thanks Jim
 
(quoted from post at 08:25:21 12/04/19)
(quoted from post at 15:39:22 12/03/19)
That is a rod bolt, do not start the engine again, if the other bolt breaks you'll have a rod stuck thru the side of the block.
I'd drop the pan and find which rod has the broken bolt. Then remove the rod cap and check the condition of the bearing and crank journal.
If the bearing looks ok and the rod journal isn't damaged or worn you may get by with just replacing the bolts and bearings.
If the crank is damaged or worn the engine will have to come off and be completely disassembled.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I discovered this was a previously repaired situation! I found a repaired hole in block behind starter motor for same piston that is the issue now and the crank journal is worn as well as rod bearings. I do not have the money or facilities to do an engine overhaul now, so my question is this... What size bearing should I use to get me through the winter until I can decide what to do. The rod cap was good and the second rod bolt was bent but still holding the cap on. It's the 172cid 4cyl gas engine.. Thanks Jim
Click to expand...

Never mind about the size bearing... I just learned what the different sizes mean ;0)
 
(quoted from post at 09:12:32 12/04/19)
(quoted from post at 08:25:21 12/04/19)
(quoted from post at 15:39:22 12/03/19)
That is a rod bolt, do not start the engine again, if the other bolt breaks you'll have a rod stuck thru the side of the block.
I'd drop the pan and find which rod has the broken bolt. Then remove the rod cap and check the condition of the bearing and crank journal.
If the bearing looks ok and the rod journal isn't damaged or worn you may get by with just replacing the bolts and bearings.
If the crank is damaged or worn the engine will have to come off and be completely disassembled.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I discovered this was a previously repaired situation! I found a repaired hole in block behind starter motor for same piston that is the issue now and the crank journal is worn as well as rod bearings. I do not have the money or facilities to do an engine overhaul now, so my question is this... What size bearing should I use to get me through the winter until I can decide what to do. The rod cap was good and the second rod bolt was bent but still holding the cap on. It's the 172cid 4cyl gas engine.. Thanks Jim
Click to expand...

Never mind about the size bearing... I just learned what the different sizes mean ;0)
Click to expand...

You need to use plasti-gauge to determine what size bearing may last for a little while. You want to be able to plow snow for three months, not three minutes.
 
(quoted from post at 15:39:22 12/03/19)
That is a rod bolt, do not start the engine again, if the other bolt breaks you'll have a rod stuck thru the side of the block.
I'd drop the pan and find which rod has the broken bolt. Then remove the rod cap and check the condition of the bearing and crank journal.
If the bearing looks ok and the rod journal isn't damaged or worn you may get by with just replacing the bolts and bearings.
If the crank is damaged or worn the engine will have to come off and be completely disassembled.
Click to expand...

Does anyone know where to get these 172 gas connecting rod bolts? YT doesn't stock and agkits sells one bolt for $62 !!!
 
(quoted from post at 16:47:55 12/12/19)
(quoted from post at 15:39:22 12/03/19)
That is a rod bolt, do not start the engine again, if the other bolt breaks you'll have a rod stuck thru the side of the block.
I'd drop the pan and find which rod has the broken bolt. Then remove the rod cap and check the condition of the bearing and crank journal.
If the bearing looks ok and the rod journal isn't damaged or worn you may get by with just replacing the bolts and bearings.
If the crank is damaged or worn the engine will have to come off and be completely disassembled.
Click to expand...

Does anyone know where to get these 172 gas connecting rod bolts? YT doesn't stock and agkits sells one bolt for $62 !!!
Click to expand...


It is time to give Mark and Jesse a call. They saved me a lot of $
 
(quoted from post at 17:14:54 12/12/19)
(quoted from post at 16:47:55 12/12/19)
(quoted from post at 15:39:22 12/03/19)
That is a rod bolt, do not start the engine again, if the other bolt breaks you'll have a rod stuck thru the side of the block.
I'd drop the pan and find which rod has the broken bolt. Then remove the rod cap and check the condition of the bearing and crank journal.
If the bearing looks ok and the rod journal isn't damaged or worn you may get by with just replacing the bolts and bearings.
If the crank is damaged or worn the engine will have to come off and be completely disassembled.
Click to expand...

Does anyone know where to get these 172 gas connecting rod bolts? YT doesn't stock and agkits sells one bolt for $62 !!!
Click to expand...



It is time to give Mark and Jesse a call. They saved me a lot of $
Click to expand...

Oh yeah! Thanks
 
(quoted from post at 17:17:48 12/12/19)
(quoted from post at 17:14:54 12/12/19)
(quoted from post at 16:47:55 12/12/19)
(quoted from post at 15:39:22 12/03/19)
That is a rod bolt, do not start the engine again, if the other bolt breaks you'll have a rod stuck thru the side of the block.
I'd drop the pan and find which rod has the broken bolt. Then remove the rod cap and check the condition of the bearing and crank journal.
If the bearing looks ok and the rod journal isn't damaged or worn you may get by with just replacing the bolts and bearings.
If the crank is damaged or worn the engine will have to come off and be completely disassembled.
Click to expand...

Does anyone know where to get these 172 gas connecting rod bolts? YT doesn't stock and agkits sells one bolt for $62 !!!
Click to expand...



It is time to give Mark and Jesse a call. They saved me a lot of $
Click to expand...

Oh yeah! Thanks
Click to expand...

Update: SUCCESS! So after finding a good pair of used connecting rod bolts ($16 each) (YT did not have any and Mark and Jesse were not able to find any either - Roberts ultimately came thru) we tried to put them on and found the connecting rod itself bent slightly from the pounding with just one bolt and had to replace the rod. Got a nice used rod w/bolts for less than two new bolts! Took off the head and replaced the rod and put it back with new bearings and after a few pushrod adjustments got ole Bennie fired up in time for the ice storm. Thanks for all your help and advice. Next project is to replace the cracked exhaust header and piping. Oh and to figure out the occasional clunk noise heard in the left rear wheel/axle area. Peace and happy holidays.
 

Congratulations! and good work! The clunk is most likely one or two of the bolts that attach the wheel rims to the center being a little loose. I have had one clunking for three years now but haven't been able to detect which one it is.
 
(quoted from post at 17:01:20 12/30/19)
Congratulations! and good work! The clunk is most likely one or two of the bolts that attach the wheel rims to the center being a little loose. I have had one clunking for three years now but haven't been able to detect which one it is.
Click to expand...

That's really good to hear about the axle clunk. I was very nervous about a major axle issue. I also need to check brakes - not stopping good at all but saw they are simple drum brakes.

Another question: :D My son noticed a pretty good leak under the steering wheel and we have no power steering at all. Haven't checked fluid level yet but any idea on the seal in that area?
 
(quoted from post at 19:38:10 12/30/19)
(quoted from post at 17:01:20 12/30/19)
Congratulations! and good work! The clunk is most likely one or two of the bolts that attach the wheel rims to the center being a little loose. I have had one clunking for three years now but haven't been able to detect which one it is.
Click to expand...

That's really good to hear about the axle clunk. I was very nervous about a major axle issue. I also need to check brakes - not stopping good at all but saw they are simple drum brakes.

Another question: :D My son noticed a pretty good leak under the steering wheel and we have no power steering at all. Haven't checked fluid level yet but any idea on the seal in that area?
Click to expand...

I have not been into a steering gear but there should be only gear. oil in there if it has no power. I would think that it would have had power steering when new.
 
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