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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
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Ford Frankentractor

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ESVADuke

11-13-2019 12:23:51




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acquired a backhoe loader I was told it was an 800 series.

Indeed the stamp on the bell housing is 850, and it has a 5 speed tranny 1956 serial number. But the 850 was gas only? It has a 172ci 4 cyl diesel with block #CONN60151, which should be a 1960 10th modification. The frame + front cowling are from an industrial tractor, like a 1800 series or early 4000. It has an after market Elenco 4wd front end and the shaft out the left side of the rear to drive it, but the hoe mount interferes with that and it is not connected, and I do not have he parts. The loader is a 10-332 and the hoe is a 723, both of which I am told are 1960s. The 'customized' front rims (old truck trims?) hold 7.5x17 tires that are rare and expensive. What rims should be on a ford industrial? It is 12 V and has two solenoids one just for the heat plugs, is that normal? Generally the wiring is serviceable but messy, almost like two systems were merged. Previous owner started painting blue, but should be red? The blue stays for now, and I plan to paint the rest industrial yellow. Assuming only the transmission is an 850 5 speed, how can I find out what model is the front half and rear of this beast? Does the air cleaner go inside or outside of the hood?









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Sean in PA

12-12-2019 19:48:56




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
I work for a software company and do customer support, and based on experience I'm betting that the next time that the site gets upgraded to a new version of the forum software that the classic view will no longer be an option. And I'm also guessing that the current version that it is running is close to (if not already past) the end of its support lifetime with the software company that makes and supports it, so probably sometime within the next 1 to 3 years (depending on how stubborn the site admins here are) the classic view will no longer be an option.

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showcrop

12-12-2019 09:44:25




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
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ESVA, I wouldn't worry about it. Just remember that if you want to revive something as UD says start a new thread. I switched to Modern probably 15 years ago and have never looked back. There is a debate thread between the two probably 10 times per year. Most of the reasons that classic viewers give for preferring it are the same reasons that I prefer modern view. In other words the far and away biggest reason is simply not wanting to change. After all Yesterday is what this forum is all about.

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Sean in PA

12-12-2019 08:11:29




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

All threads are available to view in both Modern and Classic views. It is how each person decides to view the forum that makes the difference. While viewing in Classic View there is a link at the top of the page that says "Modern View" and likewise while viewing in Modern View there is a link at the top of the page for "Classic View".
The two major differences that I see are:

1. modern view moves threads to the top of the first page each time they are updated with a new post, and Classic view only adds new threads to the top of the first page so older threads eventually age off of the first page even if it has more recent reply posts.

2. Classic View shows all posts within a thread relative to the post that was being replied to sort of in a tree view so you can follow sub-threads of individual replies more easily, while Modern View simply puts all posts one after the other in the chronological order that they were posted so it is harder to discern which prior post was being replied to when you read through the entire thread.

People who prefer Classic View because of the easier to follow thread replies like that feature so much that they don't care that they eventually miss new replies ot old threads, while people who like Modern View like the fact that the threads with the most recent individual posts are at the top of the first page that they don't mind the confusion while following replies within a thread. Or at least folks have a preference of one over another.
I prefer Modern View and so I usually include a quote of at least part of the post am replying to if it was not the last post in the thread before I make my reply, which makes following replies easier in Modern View. Generally, if I reply without including a quote it is generally a reply to the previous post in Modern View, and when I do include a quote it is usually a reply to a post earlier in the thread.

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Destroked 450

12-12-2019 07:06:21




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
It's a ongoing issue between modern and classic.

Classic will not bring older threads with recent replies back to the top, modern does.

Those on classic will Re: the topic to get it on the current page and continue the conversation.

Problem is some will simply Re: without listing the original topic heading and now there's a conversation going on with no reference as to what the original subject was about.

In modern the original subject is there with however many pages of replies that have been posted, this way one doesn't have to back trace however many Re"s there is to find the original post that started the thread.

It's a ongoing debate about classic and modern with equal numbers on both sides as to which is the best.

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ESVADuke

12-12-2019 04:58:54




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I had no idea... can this thread be translated/converted to classic view?



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Tony Jacobs

12-11-2019 15:35:03




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Hello Duke , yes I know how it is there I have a place in Penhook . I would definitely look for the old parts it would be well worth it if you locate them . Tony



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ESVADuke

12-10-2019 10:18:23




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
thanks Tony,

I had thought about looking around for the old rear end. The guy I bought it from had recently moved here, bought it running, dumped $4K into it and had to move to FL, sold it for half that. It is a pretty small community here, so I'm sure if I ask around I can pick up a thread or two on its history and maybe find the old 4wd parts. We are remote enough people tend not to throw things away or scrap them.

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Ultradog MN

12-10-2019 14:02:43




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 12-10-2019 10:18:23  
ESVADuke,
You are probably using the modern view side of this forum. Did you know if you use modern view on a month old thread the folks who use classic view - which is OVER HALF of the members here - will not even see your update? I suggest you do not reply to a thread that is more than a couple of days old.
Either start useing classic view or start a new thread if you want to reach ALL of the knowledgeable folks here.

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Tony Jacobs

12-10-2019 08:40:37




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Hello Duke , That Elenco kit is from late 1963 so I would assume the tractor to be 1963/1964 as it was probably dealer installed , 304 is the model for Heavy Duty Industrials and 308 is for the AG tractors . Unfortunately you do have the weakest rear end made but as you said with you doing only light usage hopefully you will be OK . But as Showcrop posted about the frame that s what it is supposed to do help stiffen the tractor up but guys have been snapping these tractors in half since they were new even with the heaviest rear ends in them that s why I would never install an early rear end in one . I see no transfer case in the pictures so I would assume it is long gone also . Did you question the previous owner about the tractor ? Who worked on it ? Was the work done when he owned it ? If not who did he get from ? Maybe they have the broken parts still sitting around ? One never knows until you ask . As far as making up names goes everybody does it , it s nothing new it does not offend me I don t care nor will I waste my time trying figure out what you are talking about until you post a picture . That s why I said just post pictures it s easier .

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ESVADuke

12-07-2019 11:58:53




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
OK, yes, duh!

thanks.



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showcrop

12-07-2019 11:49:05




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Duke, those two shafts are what the lift arms of the three point hitch would have mounted on. Even though that is an AG rear end you don't need to worry that much about breaking it. Some people have broken them when using a 3 point hoe, but with your frame you need not worry about that. The farmer that I worked for as a kid had an 841 with Elenco that I drove a lot. He used it for loading gravel and he even excavated for my dad's drive way with it.

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ESVADuke

12-07-2019 11:11:37




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Here's the tag from the Elenco front end (yes it has the name cast into it also). Looks like a model 304? not 30 after cleaning it up some more.
next pic is cast numbers from the Elenco

next is the cast in numbers off the rear left side forward of the axle housing.

next is a picture of the rear and trans underside, what are the two shafts/spindles extending right and left? I don't see any transfer case, what am I looking for? likely went away with the old trans and rear?

next is close up the shaft/spindle coming out on the left side

This machine will not be used hard, so I am hoping if this is a weaker rear end it will survive.

I am not a professional mechanic, just a small farmer trying to fix and run old equipment. Sorry if my inaccurate vocabulary offends you, I am not just "making up names". I am trying to sort out the BS from true on internet search information and forums like this to try to get this machine running. I appreciate your time and expertise in helping me do so.











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Tony Jacobs

12-07-2019 07:26:25




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Hello Sean , That is probably exactly what happened , but if they did that now he has the weakest rear axle housing made . That housing is not only the thinnest casting but the weakest steel because no real backhoes were available from Ford at that time so nothing was planned for in production . Hopefully for his sake it still has the original rear end in the tractor .



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Tony Jacobs

12-07-2019 07:26:03




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Hello Sean , That is probably exactly what happened , but if they did that now he has the weakest rear axle housing made . That housing is not only the thinnest casting but the weakest steel because no real backhoes were available from Ford at that time so nothing was planned for in production . Hopefully for his sake it still has the original rear end in the tractor .



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Sean in PA

12-07-2019 04:50:02




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Tony,

OK, I missed that point. My take on why the rear axle was transferred with the transmission would be because it would be simpler for a couple of reasons:

1. Only one split required on the donor and recipient tractors.

2. Easier to assure that all of the PTO engagement parts are there for the manual trans PTO setup rather than trying to source them separately.



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Tony Jacobs

12-06-2019 21:08:41




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Hello Sean , Yes that is absolutely true but no one here is speaking about three cylinder tractors , this whole post is about a butchered up Heavy Duty Industrial 4 cylinder tractor and the other posted Specifically said the rear end was changed because it was an SOS rear end not because it was a three cylinder . I don t think there is anyone dumb enough to think that this was a three cylinder tractor so who cares about three cylinder tractors in relation to this post .

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Sean in PA

12-06-2019 20:20:24




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
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Tony, that is correct for the pre-1965 4 cylinder S-O-S tractors. The 1965+ 3 cylinder models had differing gear ratios with one ratio for S-O-S transmissions and a different ratio for all others.



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Tony Jacobs

12-06-2019 14:45:17




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Hello Duke , There is no such thing as an Elenco 30 front end , I have no idea where you came up with that since there is no mention of it . More than likely you bought a fuel filter assembly for a three cylinder engine and not a four cylinder engine . You need to post pictures of the shaft you are talking about . There should be a Transfer Case there just like any other four wheel drive . If you don t know what to call a part post a picture and ask what it is instead of making up names . If your not a mechanic and have no clue as to what you are talking about say so it makes things easier . So take some pictures and post them and we will go from there . Tony

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ESVADuke

12-06-2019 02:59:30




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Thanks Tony.

The engine block info I got was off of a website somewhere, so as the saying goes, "anything can be posted on-line". I was leaning towards the 4140, but when I went to get a new fuel filter assembly to replace the bastardized one u-bolted to one of the hydraulic pipes, the holes in the block are 2.5" apart, and the newer version did not fit, required an older?version with a bracket. Have you seen that?

It is indeed an Elenco 30 front end, there is a tag but too beat up to read the serial number.

Glad to have the information on the front wheels, the butcher job is so bad they wobble ~2" off center, so I'd like to replace them.

There is a shaft coming out of the rear on the left side for the 4wd?, I do not know if it is operational, and again "somewhere on line" said the backhoe would interfere, and the tolerances look pretty close at a glance, so I did not investigate further. If I could get the 4wd working it would be a huge bonus. Or is the a hornet's nest I should avoid?

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Tony Jacobs

12-05-2019 23:30:05




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Hello Duke , Since over 10,000 of my posts have been deleted and my join date is the second time I came back I see why everybody calls me looking for old information that was posted here years ago. They can t find it anymore . More than likely as it has been said here you have a 1962-1965 Heavy Duty Industrial 4140 tractor that was a SOS machine when new . The engine casting number CONN6015J supports that as what you listed is wrong . Also where did you come up with 10th modification ? Of what somebody s feeding you a line Sh- - there . I assume the front axle says ELENCO cast into it ? It looks like it even though the pictures don t show it . That is also the 1962 and newer axle . The backhoe doesn t interfere with the Four Wheel Drive Conversion either it was broken or the same Butcher who worked on the tractor just left it off rather fix it correctly . Tony

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Tony Jacobs

12-05-2019 23:12:24




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Hello IndFord , The 4140 was built from 1962-1965 . The 800 series was built from 1954-1957 . There is NO SUCH THING as a SOS rear end , that is completely false , Ford produced one rear axle with one gear ratio only they are all the same . They did however improve the design over the years with better castings heavier axle shafts etc. etc but they are all the same regardless of being improved . The 723 backhoe came out in 1961 just as you say an improved version of the 713 backhoe . Tony

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Tony Jacobs

12-05-2019 23:02:20




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Hello Sean , The 1801 series was produced from June 1958 to October 1960 as a Red and Gray tractor . From October 1960 to July 1962 the 4040 series was produced as a Red and Buff tractor . The 4140 was produced from July 1962 to December 1965 and was Blue and Buff . Your SOS models are correct for the 1801 series only . Tony



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Kirk-NJ

11-15-2019 00:45:12




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
It likely started as an 1800 or 4000 with SOS Ford never had a 5 speed in an industrial. Tires would have been 7.50 X 16. Wheels have been altered. If it's the earlier model then steering was changed out to the later 4000 steering, a good thing.



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ESVADuke

11-14-2019 04:28:27




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Thanks everyone for the information.

This machine was just down the road from me here on the eastern shore of Virginia. It is tough to get anything sizable here with transportation costs, so I was willing to take a chance on this for general small farm work (ditches, pond, culverts, trash piles in the woods, etc. My oldest tractor is a 1948 Super AV Farmall for cultivating (sold the F12), and have two 70's Ford diesels a 2600 and 5000 that are the main workhorses. I did not know anything about this older class of tractors, but seems like I can get it to serviceable condition with some minimal work. I'll find out if that 5 speed is strong enough, try to take it easy with it. I have found a good deal on new rear tires already on rims, need to find some 7.5 x 17 tires for the front.

I appreciate all the comments and help.

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Sean in PA

11-13-2019 20:50:18




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
The models within the 1801 industrial series that came with the S-O-S transmission were the 1811 (S-O-S with no PTO), 1871 (S-O-S with 540 rpm independent PTO), and the 1881 (dual speed 540/1000 rpm independent PTO plus ground speed).

You would need to find the date codes on the other components to tell whether it was made from 1959 to 1960, in which case it would have originally been an 1801 series, or if it was made in 1961 or later, in which case it would be a 4000 industrial.

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indford

11-13-2019 18:44:18




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
You got this out of Maryland? I think it started life as a 1963-65 4000 4140(5/6) Heavy duty Industrial Diesel Select o Speed tractor with the Elenco 4 wheel drive. Someone over the years must have replaced the SOS transmission and rear axle with a 5 speed transmission and rear axle from a 1955-7 800 850 ford tractor. Since the rear axles are different between the SOS and 5 speed they were force to use the 5 speed's rear axles as well. The transfer case for the Elenco would not have been a direct bolt up to the 5 speed's parts. So maybe that why it was left that off, unless it was damaged beyond repair. None of the Industrial tractors (1801,4040,4140) used the 5 speeds transmission as ford deemed them to weak for these type of machines. Only the 4 speeds and Select o Speed came in the Industrial tractor in the years between 1958-1965. Your loader is a ford 712 which available only on the 1801,4040,4140 and the 5000(Fordson Super Major). The Ford 713/723 14 foot backhoe(model 19-301) was only available with the industrial tractors(1801,4040,4140) and the 5000(Fordson Super Major). The Ford 713/723 10(19-299) and 12(19-300) foot were available on the industrial as well as other fords too. The 713 and 723 backhoes have subtle differences, the 713's came on the 1801 from 1958 to about 1960 when the 4040 came out, where sometime in the 1960's before the 4140 came out came out the 723 were being made.

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michford

11-13-2019 20:17:16




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to indford, 11-13-2019 18:44:18  
The Elenco transfer case will mount up to a five speed as it mounts where the pto lever inspection cover originally mounts same as the four speed and SOS. What would be different for the Elenco between the SOS and five speed would be the coupler with sprockets.



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Shaun Wallace

11-13-2019 17:46:57




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
That is a 5 speed trans that was swaped in after sos went bad. It was cheaper to put gear trans in than fix other. I have a 801D that has 4 speed put in it. Found 861D tractor with bad engine so that 5 speed with live pto is going to replace 4 speed.



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ESVADuke

11-13-2019 17:09:50




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
I found a pic of a select o speed unit that goes in the rectangular space, but I do not have the planetary transmission, at least I don't see the adjustments on the side for it.
So the Selectospeed would have been on the industrial tractor originally before the 850 trans was put in?

What models would have had that?
I am waiting to get the thing running before trying to figure out the gear shift with the up/down bit, is that Hi/Lo so I do have a ten speed?

sorry for all the questions, trying to figure this thing out.

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Stevob671

11-13-2019 18:36:31




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 17:09:50  
You only have a 5 speed. If you are in neutral you can raise or lower the whole shifter straight up or down to one of 3 positions. The top position and then push forward will forward will be 3rd gear. Pull backward will be reverse. Fully down and forward is 4rth and rearward is 5th. Halfway up or down gets you 1st and 2nd.



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ESVADuke

11-13-2019 15:24:30




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
not


sure why the pic didn't load before



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ESVADuke

11-13-2019 15:21:50




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
those yellow wheels will be the first thing painted.

The centers of the front rims might be original, but they have been "modified"



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ESVADuke

11-13-2019 15:19:49




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

thanks! Why the square gap under the steering? dose the dash go with the 850 parts or the industrial diesel parts?



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showcrop

11-13-2019 15:01:09




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Those front rims look correct for the Elenco. The air cleaner would be outside of the hood. The early ones were right below the manifold while later ones were piped up the left side to above the hood. I think that it would look good in industrial yellow or Ford buff. That yellow that is on the wheels now is waaaaay too yellow. it looks like Deere.



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michford

11-14-2019 03:37:13




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to showcrop, 11-13-2019 15:01:09  
The front rims are original to an Elenco, but they have had the backspacing changed by cutting the center and having flat plates welded in.



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Shaun Wallace

11-13-2019 13:47:08




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Select-O-Speed. 10 speeds forward/2 Reverse. Early power shift trans.



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ESVADuke

11-13-2019 13:40:14




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Yes, hole below the steering wheel, thought it was missing a piece.
What is SOS?



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Shaun Wallace

11-13-2019 13:17:56




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 Re: Ford Frankentractor in reply to ESVADuke, 11-13-2019 12:23:51  
Haves square hole below steering wheel? with 2 lites on dash was SOS . Yes 2 solenoids are used 1 to start and other for glow plugs.



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