801 overheats

After solving the no start when hot problem of my buddy's 801 (could be an 821?), I went on to tackle the overheat issue it's had since he bought it 13 years ago.

(I read the latest overheating thread first)

At first I thought it might have either a 190 degree thermostat, or a thermostat which didn't open fully, impeding the coolant flow. There was no thermostat in the thing, which told me that whoever had this tractor before him had the same problem.

Further confirming that someone else had the same problem was the spark plugs show it running just a tad rich, so it's not a lean mixture.

It runs at the top of the green when he's using the finish mower deck. If he runs it in any gear other than 1st in low (has the hi/lo "S" transmission) it goes into the red & it is overheating, it's not an indication problem.

The water pump is old, but works fine. The radiator is unobstructed. The block is unobstructed. (We ran water through both & it came out as fast as it went in.)

The coolant came out bright green, looking like new. On occasion he's added small amounts to it, but other than that it's had the same coolant that came with the tractor 13 years ago. I've seen coolant from cars which had leaky head gaskets & it was brownish looking from combustion gas.

I was thinking perhaps it could be overheating due to advanced timing. We didn't have a timing light, so we put a cigarette paper between the points. I slowly turned the engine until my buddy could pull the paper out. We checked the timing mark & it was on 3 degrees BTC. (It's supposed to be 4 degrees BTC @ 45-475 rpm & 24 Degrees BTC @ 2200 rpm.)

But even if we had a timing light we wouldn't know what the true rpms would be as the tach reads 950 with the engine off. The max RPM on the tach is 25-2600 rpms & he's never been ran it anywhere near that. I'm guessing that he runs it at about 13-1400 when he cuts grass, which is as fast as he usually runs the thing. On a 70 degree day that'll put it at the top of the green, right next to the red. On a 90 degree day it'll overheat.

I'm not sure how to check the timing without knowing the rpm's. The engine starts & runs good. Any suggestions?

Take a good, real good, look at the fan belt. My 3600 used to run pretty close to the red until I changed the fan belt (which looked good). Now it runs quite cool.

Not that it's your trouble but setting the points using a cigarette paper I don't think would be open enough, (.025 with a feeler gauge)

and setting timing at an idle you don't have to worry about rpm.

Disregard my posts, after reading again I better understand what you were saying...sorry.

The fact that the coolant comes out as fast as it goes in doesn't necessarily mean that the block is clean. It can be holding a lot of sediment near the bottom that restricts heat transfer.

a 961 I bought had an over heating problem. it would get up to 250 and still climbing and blow antifreeze out the radiator so I started flushing it out using mean green to help. flushed it 3/4 times. when it was cooling down I started power washing it. developed another leak, got a new hole in one of the freeze plugs. removed it and got a lot of gunk out that hole. replaced it and re flushed again. made sure I removed the temp thermocouple so it would drain any material in there. after several flushed. finally I got it to hold at 225 running pto speed for 20 minutes with outside temp 88 degrees. I think the block is s clean as I can get it. I do believe who ever had this tractor used stop leak in it. so I ordered a new thermostat, bought a new radiator off ebay for 150 bucks that came with both lower radiator hoses (used to one for my tractor, upper hose, radiator bolts and pads so now she runs around 170 on a hot day at pto speed. put all new gauges on it now I am in the process of sprucing her up. plan on putting my finish mower on it. narrow front with power steering that starts easy and runs great, like new tires on back. good luck on fixing yours. hope all goes well with that.

I guess I missed the solving of the "no start problem when hot". What sold the problem?

(quoted from post at 06:44:37 09/25/19) and setting timing at an idle you don't have to worry about rpm.

Click to expand...

That wasn't to set the points gap, that was to set when the points were just starting to open.

Wayne:
I'm not sure what the exact part was that cured the not start when hot problem. Since the parts were cheap I replaced the coil & plug wires, distributor cap, rotor, that little clip that goes on the dist. shaft & rotor (what the hell is that about? Oh, and the replacement part I bought from YT was junk, it broke when I tried squeezing it to make it tighter. Fortunately the old one was still good so it went back in.)

I also removed the starter & cleaned where it & the flywheel cover where they mated, & between the flywheel cover & the block. I replaced both terminal ends on the battery cables. I removed the ground cable & cleaned it & where it grounded to the frame. (The whole time my buddy kept saying it'd ground through the bolts & I kept saying not always. When I cranked it the engine spun over faster than it ever had. I grinned & he looked down & mumbled.)

Back to the current problem: The coolant had been in the tractor for at least 13 years & it was still bright green. Normally when a lot of sediment builds up in a block it is rust & colors the fluid orange. That & how easily it flowed when I put a hose to the block makes me think there's not much, if any, sediment in the block.

The V belt driving the power steering pump needs replaced & it was kinda loose. The one driving the generator was a bit tighter, but both will be replaced. Hopefully, that will be the problem, but since it had two belts driving the water pump, I'm not so sure.

Thanks for the info about setting the timing w/o a light. I suppose the flyweights in the dist. are fixed so the timing advance is set by design.

I guess what I'll do next is replace the V belts (making sure they're tight), put it back together (leaving out the thermostat) & getting a test kit to see if the head gasket is leaking.

If that's the case it'll take him several months to save up enough to have the head milled, valves replaced, seats reground & a new head gasket. (He's on disability & won't want to do all that, but I won't not do all that; the valve springs are 60 years old.)

Any idea how much that'll cost?

bel----
Thanks for the reply on the "no start" Don't spend money yet. Warm it up , with or without the thermostat, leave the radiator cap off and watch the coolant flow. If you don't see bubbles in the coolant, the head gasket is probably fine. May be time to remove the soft plugs and give the block a good cleaning.

(quoted from post at 21:30:40 09/24/19) After solving the no start when hot problem of my buddy's 801 (could be an 821?), I went on to tackle the overheat issue it's had since he bought it 13 years ago.

(I read the latest overheating thread first)

At first I thought it might have either a 190 degree thermostat, or a thermostat which didn't open fully, impeding the coolant flow. There was no thermostat in the thing, which told me that whoever had this tractor before him had the same problem.

Further confirming that someone else had the same problem was the spark plugs show it running just a tad rich, so it's not a lean mixture.

It runs at the top of the green when he's using the finish mower deck. If he runs it in any gear other than 1st in low (has the hi/lo "S" transmission) it goes into the red & it is overheating, it's not an indication problem.

The water pump is old, but works fine. The radiator is unobstructed. The block is unobstructed. (We ran water through both & it came out as fast as it went in.)

The coolant came out bright green, looking like new. On occasion he's added small amounts to it, but other than that it's had the same coolant that came with the tractor 13 years ago. I've seen coolant from cars which had leaky head gaskets & it was brownish looking from combustion gas.

I was thinking perhaps it could be overheating due to advanced timing. We didn't have a timing light, so we put a cigarette paper between the points. I slowly turned the engine until my buddy could pull the paper out. We checked the timing mark & it was on 3 degrees BTC. (It's supposed to be 4 degrees BTC @ 45-475 rpm & 24 Degrees BTC @ 2200 rpm.)

But even if we had a timing light we wouldn't know what the true rpms would be as the tach reads 950 with the engine off. The max RPM on the tach is 25-2600 rpms & he's never been ran it anywhere near that. I'm guessing that he runs it at about 13-1400 when he cuts grass, which is as fast as he usually runs the thing. On a 70 degree day that'll put it at the top of the green, right next to the red. On a 90 degree day it'll overheat.

I'm not sure how to check the timing without knowing the rpm's. The engine starts & runs good. Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

See the statements in bold print. The long history should tell us it's time to look beyond the norm. I find it hard to believe the tractor still run's or at least isn't smoking if it has been overheating that many years. I suggest step back and start with simple things first and systematicly work through it. If owner hasn't changed coolant in 13 years,he likely never replaced the temperature guage and temperature sensor either. Install a guage and sensor that is known to be accurate(even if only temporarly) to confirm what temp it is running at. Is the fan blade mounted in right direction? Is fan shroud missing? In view of the cause being so elusive,I might break my rule of not throwing parts at it and replace the water pump. It's possible the pump has wrong impeller,impeller not pressed on correct or other issue. Buy,beg,borrow or steal an infrared thermometer and do thus. Starting with cold engine,run at fast idle and continuely test several areas on pump,hose,block.oil pan and radiator as engine come's up to operating temperature. Since temperature sensor is in head,pay piticular attention to head,test all cylinders from both sides. One or more coolant passages may not have been cast/drilled at mfgr or gasket might not have passage hole punched at mfgr. Record temperatures and elapsed time. If possible,do same test on one or more Red Tigers to give you baseline.

Take a garden hose and wash the air side of the fins, front and back. Hold a light and see if you can see from front or back.
Will block drain from the coolant drain by starter?
Lastly check the water pump impeller, it may have rotted off.

I am betting on a plugged air side on the radiator.

It's not a plugged or dirty radiator, I checked that early on. The impeller on the water pump is connected & works fine. The water pump was the second thing I looked at after the thermostat.

I suggested that he buy a new one since we had the thing tore down that far & it looks old. If it were to start leaking a few months from now we'd hafta do the job all over & he definitely doesn't want to do that again.

It's not an indication problem: the tractor is getting hot, no bout adoubt it.

I don't know if the fan is on the right way, I will check that. The fan shroud is on.

My buddy happens to have one of those infrared thermometer devices, so I will do the advised check. I hadn't thought about the head gasket having a hole not punched out. Good tip.

Thanks for the advice about watching the coolant flow & looking for bubbles--that tip just saved my buddy a few bucks cuz now he won't have to buy a test kit.

It might be until a few days into Oct. before he has enough money to get the parts, but I'll keep everyone posted on the results.

Thanks for the advice guys. Several of the tips I wouldn't have thought of for a long time. Or in the case of a hole not punched in the head gasket, not until I took the head off.

I believe I've found the problem re: overheating. At first glance the radiator looked good.But when looking through the cooling fins I couldn't see all the way through them. Turned out that while the front & back faces of the radiator didn't have much debris in the fins, the inside did. The radiator has 3 sets of fins & there was a lot of weed seeds caught in there.

I say that I believe that is the problem because We didn't start the engine. When putting the distributor back together we noticed that the dust cover for the points wouldn't seat in the new distributor cap I bought from Yesterday's Tractors. We sanded the edge of the dust cover down so that it would fit in the new dist. cap.

Then I noticed that it wouldn't seat properly in the dist. itself. He said it always came off & went on easy so it must have been like since before he bought the thing. He bought a new one from NAPA & it was no better. I figured it just needed a little bit of persuasion & gave it a couple taps to seat it. The dust cover broke, frail thing that it is. Then we tried the old one, a couple light taps & it snapped into place. Not really, it broke on the back side.

We decided to go with Ford parts, so now I'm trying to find a Ford tractor dealer to get official Ford parts. Which I'm not sure are available. We also bought from YT the clip that goes on the dist. shaft where the rotor seats (wtf is that part about?), but when we removed it after it's first installation it was spread & was too loose so I pinched it tighter & the thing snapped. Apparently the Chinese manufacturer didn't heat treated into spring steel. We wound up using the old clip, but we'd like to get a new one. Also, the new rotor bug from YT wouldn't seat right either, but he was able to get one from NAPA that was made in the USA & it fit perfectly. Needless to say we're not too happy with the quality of parts YT sells.

Has anyone else had trouble with the points dust cover not seating in the dist.?

Does anyone know where I can buy official Ford tractor parts? I've found some Ford tractor dealers that sell genuine New Holland parts, but the parts for older tractors don't appear to be official Ford parts.