Tell me about 3 cyl sleeves

Ultradog MN · Mar 23, 2019

I posted a while ago about this gas 192 that was all fudged up from the stack being open for who knows how long.
This engine had previously been sleeved.
They are thin wall type.
With the crank out, I took a 5/4x2 chunk of teak lumber and a 3 lb hammer and was able to drive the sleeves out.
They came out fairly easy.
Looking at YT parts I see they sell a finished sleeve for these engines.
Is the OD of these sleeves a standard size? I'm wondering if I can just buy new sleeves and press them into this block.
Do finished sleeves need to be honed to size afterwards or are the bores close enough to use as is?
I just might use this old style block as as it is the same era as the tractor.
Thanks for any advice.

Sleeves

Bern · Mar 23, 2019

Odds are high that any replacement thin-wall sleeve that you buy will be identical in size. And no, they are not designed to be honed after installation - they should be ready to go as is. Key word there is "should". You always want to check your piston-to-bore clearance before you assemble something like that.

That said, I don't use them myself because the last set I had installed by the machine shop buckled on installation. Not that you could see or feel, but that you could measure with a bore gauge. Anytime I have a Ford block sleeved, they get thick-wall sleeves installed, and then those sleeves get bored and honed to size. Yes, it's more expensive, but I feel it does a better job in the end.

Dean · Mar 23, 2019

Interesting.

Dean

Ultradog MN · Mar 24, 2019

Thanks Bern.
I understand your thinking about the thin wall sleeves wrinkling or warping when you press them in and the advantage to thicker sleeves and double boring.
On the other hand, all the old tractors that were factory sleeved get thin walls pushed in and out regularly and seem to run and run.
Is your caution due to maybe the factory was better at quality control of the bore sizes than Mike or Willie in the machine shop?
I'm wondering if Chin or Chang who are making all our stuff (sleeves?)these days are capable of any better.

Bern · Mar 24, 2019

I think it would be hard to make the comparison between factory installed sleeves versus what a local machine shop could do simply because there aren't many case studies to make a comparison with. The factory only installed sleeves when they had a block that was damaged during production, which was likely less than 1% of the total.

The last thin-wall sleeve job that I rejected had about a .002" "wow" in it when I checked it with a bore gauge. The reality is that if I had never checked it and instead just ran with it, it would likely still be running to this day with no issues. It's just that I have a hard time accepting something back from a machine shop, with a near $1000 bill attached to it, that is anything less than perfect.

sunbeam · Mar 24, 2019

Just ask about the size if they want to make a sale they should help. Put the sleeve in the freezer before install

Ultradog MN · Mar 24, 2019

You got me wondering so I took a chip out of one of these sleeves and measured it.
Reads ~.050
Thin wall?
Yes I know about the very few 3 cyl engines that were factory sleeved. Was thinking about all the Red Tigers, Allis, Case, etc that were factory sleeved but don't know how thick those sleeves were.
Looking at the N parts those had .040 - thin or .090 - thick.
This convo does make me think about being cautious when pressing new ones in. Getting them started straight, etc.
Id like to save that bit of chump change between $125 for new sleeves and DIY vs the $++ to have a shop bore/rebore.

Bern · Mar 24, 2019

Yes, .050" would be considered a thin-wall sleeve. A thick-wall sleeve would be at least double that, if not more. I've never measured a thick-wall sleeve with a calipers, but I want to say that they were well over 1/8" thick.

I think you could successfully install your own thin-wall sleeves if you were careful to get the block bore as clean as you can first, and get it as warm as you can with some sort of a heater directed at it, and then pre-cool the sleeves in a freezer before installation. Have a suitable step plate nearby to drive them the rest of the way down if you cant push them all the way in by hand. That last part, if necessary, needs to be done VERY quickly.

Finally, if it takes a lot of force to drive them in, check for buckling with a bore gauge or similar. If it's less than .005", you're likely OK, even though it would bother me personally.

Ultradog MN · Mar 24, 2019

Yeah,
A thou or two I might live with but not .005
I just finished taking the rest of it apart.
Had to borrow a 1 5/8 socket to get the oil filter adapter off then get the screw-in cover for the oil pump drive gear out to get the cam out. My big sockets are up north.
There is a big automotive machine shop about 6 blocks from me. Will call them tomorrow to price having it boiled out. Dry ice place a few blocks past the big machine shop. Is it worth it to buy some to reinstall the sleeves?
I've done maybe 30 or 40 engines in my life but have never installed a set of sleeves.
Am grateful to have you and others here to advise.

Bern · Mar 24, 2019

I think if it were me, I'd try the freezer method first, and if the first one only drops in a little ways without force, quickly pull it back out and then maybe consider dry ice. I don't have enough personal experience with dry sleeves to say whether or not dry ice would be necessary. Maybe speak with your machinist friend about this.

Back in the day we used to replace dry sleeves in 8Ns with a big solid round driver that had a diameter that just mated the ID of the sleeve, and just pound them in without chilling. I shudder to think now how wavy those cylinder walls were when we were done. But, it was good enough for an 8N I'm sure.

Attached is a pic of my 1" allen wrench. I had to bring it in for a student who's working on a 4000 engine right now. He needed it for the oil pump drive. When he went to take out the core plugs, I told him not to bother. I didn't want to fight it, and I didn't want to risk breaking the block.

Ultradog MN · Mar 24, 2019

Here's my "allen wrench".
The nut cost me $2.49 at the hardware but will go in my tool box now.
I did try to remove the rear plug on the right side of the block but this nut was too loose. Needs a 1 1/16" I think.
I'd like to get it out. They have a block heater that screws in there now.

RBnSC · Mar 24, 2019

Bushings or sleeves allways use dry ice.
Ron

Tell me about 3 cyl sleeves

Ultradog MN

Well-known Member

Bern

Well-known Member

Dean

Well-known Member

Ultradog MN

Well-known Member

Bern

Well-known Member

sunbeam

Member

Ultradog MN

Well-known Member

Bern

Well-known Member

Ultradog MN

Well-known Member

Bern

Well-known Member

Ultradog MN

Well-known Member

RBnSC

Well-known Member

Similar threads