Joystick on 5610 IIs

modirt · Jan 19, 2019

Got a chance to use the loader on some snow last week, and found the way this is rigged, with hoses from the remote valves, is awkward at best. This one has the remote control levers right and left of the seat. Trying to work the raise and lower and tilt at the same time is kinda like patting yourself on the head and rubbing your belly at the same time. Hard for some to do. Me included. I have personally found a joystick or duel levers on a fender mounted manifold to be 10X easier to use.

So looking at ways to install a joystick. Have discussed it with local Ford shop and a local outfit that is Mr. Fixit for Ford and AC stuff, and both gave me the same story. They say there is a plate that mounts on top of the hydraulic control under the seat to enable powering the joystick direct, but it can't be used with this particular tractor. This seems odd for a utility tractor that is almost 100% certain to have a loader on it at some point, but that is they way it is. I'm told the only solution for a joystick is to power it from one of the remotes left on all the time.

OK.....so next question......does anyone know if there is a ready made bracket to mount a joystick on a Westendorf 26 loader? Either from Westendorf of aftermarket?

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David G · Jan 19, 2019

I have one of those for the double cross valves on the Westendorf for my 6610.

You should be able to get one from Cross. if those valves.

David G · Jan 19, 2019

I have the manual for the valve with the part numbers of the parts for the conversion.

I will "try" to remember, but pretty much once I look away I have forgotten.

Shetland Sheepdog · Jan 19, 2019

Typically, the loader valve will be on a bracket mounted to the right side loader frame tower. I wouldn't be surprised but Westendorf would have that available.

Shetland Sheepdog · Jan 19, 2019

Possibly this will help?

https://store.loaders.com/aspx/store/allassemblies.aspx?loaderid=250

modirt · Jan 19, 2019

(quoted from post at 10:32:47 01/19/19)

Possibly this will help?

https://store.loaders.com/aspx/store/allassemblies.aspx?loaderid=250

I had found that link too, but it seems to me those are all references to the joystick and valves, not to any mounting bracket. May just need to call them on Monday.

Mr. Fixit sold the hydraulic plate tap in fitting for what I assume must be the Series I tractors....and sells the joysticks, etc. but he didn't have the mounting bracket. Ironically, he has a nice 3930 on his lot with Ford loader that is rigged exactly as I'm trying to do....with some type of after market bracket installed.

A person could always get out a welder and make, one, but it doesn't seem like this should be that hard.

David G · Jan 19, 2019

Your 5610 will require an CCLS valve, or come off the remotes.

Mine came off the remotes initially, but I tapped in and put a CCLS valve on, I have heard talk of a power beyond plate.

Bern · Jan 19, 2019

Best option is a CCLS valve that doesn't tie up any remotes, and doesn't flow oil when you're not using the loader. Lots of
discussion on this topic in the archives.

modirt · Jan 20, 2019

(quoted from post at 11:18:32 01/19/19) Your 5610 will require an CCLS valve, or come off the remotes.

Mine came off the remotes initially, but I tapped in and put a CCLS valve on, I have heard talk of a power beyond plate.

Am slowing getting up to speed on these. I've only used tractors and remotes for over 50 years, but that is just using them. Never had to take one apart or understand what it was doing before.

So my current tractor remotes seem to be an open center valves. If so, I assume the tractor is fitted with straight gear driven pumps and if tractor is running, oil is flowing.

So if I then use those remotes to power up a joystick, if the joystick manifold is also an open center.....such that hydraulic lines to it functioning more or less as extension cords......then all is OK.

If not.....and the pressure lines dead end at the manifold as closed center lines and instead flowing back, that high pressure flow is blocked and has to get past a pressure relief value to get back to the return line, that is bad. Really bad.

So the success of using one tractor remote to power up the joystick manifold depends on the internal setup of the manifold?

modirt · Jan 20, 2019

Second question........

How does the "power beyond" plate and CCLS (closed center load sensing) valve differ? They connect in different places, but how do they differ in operation?

It may also help if anyone can name a particular CCLS value that is suited for this purpose. I'm coming up blank.

BTW, went waste deep into the archives and kept running into the same brick wall. Kept reading words I didn't understand. I'm a visual learner.

Could probably have me whipped into shape in 10 minutes if I had someone who understands what it will take standing over the tractor pointing to this and that and diagramming it out for me.

David G · Jan 20, 2019

Look up my posts on the 6610, I show the valve and how to pipe it in.

I used a prince CCLS 20 GPM valve

Bern might have part number on power beyond, do not know if that needs CCLS or the standard OC that it came with.

modirt · Jan 20, 2019

I found that thread and the photos, but couldn't recognize most of the parts......so wasn't following.

I think that thread also included a comment from Rod or one of the others that if the right type of joystick were used, it could be powered by one of the remotes with no issues. . If so, I'd be OK with this. Having the use of a functional joystick and only one remote tied up is 10x better than what I have now, which is no joystick and 2 remotes tied up.

Since this particular loader is easy to drop off, if I need both rear remotes for some other use, I'd be quick to drop the loader. Good idea on a lot of uses anyway.

modirt · Jan 20, 2019

David:

this was your thread and photos........

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ford&th=601963

And this was Rods comment lifted from another thread.......seems these threads keep plowing the same ground....going round and round. And if others are like me, I don't know the terms, jargon, parts, etc. so it makes it hard to follow. A photo or video with diagrams would help immensely.

If you want to add valves in such a way that you don't tie these two rear ones up, the only option you have is to get a valve stack of CCLS valves. That could be tricky. Certainly, NH will get you a set like you have... and they're not cheap. Local hyd shops can probably get you what you need.... but let me tell you, it can be hard to convince them that what you need is a closed center valve with load sensing. Particularly after you tell them it's an open center system. I wish I had the Rexroth numbers for that monoblock... then you could just call a Rexroth dealer and give them a number.
Anyhow... what you need is CCLS valves. Then you tee the supply line to feed them. You also need a 'shuttle check tee' for the load sense line and tee that in place. If you don't have it, or you just use a standard tee, the load sense oil will bleed back through the other valve you're not using and nothing will work.... To complete, you tee the returns together and you're done.

[b:2f2c2d1450]Another option... if you didn't need one of the rear remotes... you could just buy a basic tandem center valve with [u:2f2c2d1450]power beyond[/u:2f2c2d1450] and plumb it's inlet and return into one of your present remotes and use that to feed it....[/b:2f2c2d1450]

Rod

basic tandem center valve with power beyond?

modirt · Jan 23, 2019

Can we revisit this photo? Manual described it as the hydraulic top cover.

Going over my manual and trying to understand what it is I've got.

Reference to 5 and 6 in my photo are to the Live Tapping and ASC valve ports in the manual. The context in the manual is to a load monitor remote cylinder......which as I read it, duplicates the draft control function found on the 3 point arms, except it does it with mounted equipment using a special load sensing cylinder. If those ports (my 5 and 6.....their 1 and 2) are used with that type of cylinder, and only that cylinder, then that ends there. Or......can those be used to tap into the hydraulics for a loader?

In addition, the #3 in my photo is where the pressure line comes into the manifold from the 2nd hydraulic pump. The one under the fuel tank. It exits the manifold with a T fitting at 4, which go to the remotes, right and left.

What are 1 and 2 for and what do they do?

Manual says I can have up to 4 remotes. I only have the two that are shown. Where would I get pressure lines for additional remotes? More T's?

Also, I found some helpful (to me) videos to help me understand what it is I have. Will put those up in a minute.

I appreciate you guys helping me out with this.

Shetland Sheepdog · Jan 23, 2019

It would appear that you have the CCLS system, with dual pumps, the same as I have on my 3 Fords.
I have loaders on 2 of them, and operate the loaders with a 2 spool open center valve, one of the spools having a float position.
If you desire the 3rd function, just buy a 3 spool open center valve, with one spool having the float position.
Feed said valve with hoses from one of your CCLS remotes.
Only issue is if you desire to use your other CCLS remote, you will have to move the CCLS remote handle, that feeds the loader valve, to neutral in order to get full power on the other CCLS remote. This is what I have to do when using my Discbine with my 5610-2 with loader.

modirt · Jan 23, 2019

This video helped me understand the basic layout and operation of hydraulic systems (seems to me it is an open center system), although I think some stuff starts breaking down and gets left out in the end (he is not consistent throughout as far as P, PB, T is concerned). But if this mimics what I have, then this helps. Again, I'm a visual learner. I can read it, I can hear it, won't help. But if I see it, I get it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAeW5eqEqvM

I think the manifold he describes is what I have. Part that caught my eye starts around the 6.00 minute mark as far as a loader is concerned.

Video below describes the type of joystick I think would work for me. It is shown for a Koyker, but downstream of the joystick, going to the cylinders, they all work the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSNyrSnNmWQ

If I can use this, powered by P and T hoses plugged into my left hand remote, this would work for me. Not ideal, but would work.

BTW, I called Westendorf about the bracket. It is not sold separate, but is included in a kit that includes the fender mounting bracket, valve (I asked if that was a CCLS and they could not say.....only that it was a way to tap into the hydraulics to power up the joystick), and the joystick.

Precision V1243005006 - Cost of entire kit was $1,647. 89

Joystick on 5610 IIs

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