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Order Ford 861 Parts Online

Ford 861 power master charging issues

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Author  [Modern View]
Full Spool

01-19-2019 17:33:54




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I own a 1957 Powermaster 861 and I am having issues with it charging . I checked the generators output and I am getting 1.5 volts. I put a brand new voltage regulator and my non charging indicator light stays illuminated. I verified it is not charging by using my volt meter . No matter what rpm range the engine is at I get no voltage increase at the battery . The tractors wiring is all in good shape , I got a pretty blue spark and click while polarizing. I have searched the forum and read and tested now I am at my threshold .

Positive to ground 6v system
Battery full charges and good operating condition

Wiring appears to be in good shape
Generator output 1.5 volts

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Apache_58

01-23-2019 10:22:30




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
[quote

I just now read that the tests WERE performed as described in the Youtube video.
Throwing in the towel?? You just found your problem.
Bad generator. If you have good battery and new regulators...



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Apache_58

01-23-2019 10:14:54




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tSJxCNLgL2w[/quote]sure not much of a VR test![/quote]

Nope, just trying to keep it simple.

If the tests had been performed at the generator as outlined in the first video I linked to and the generator made sufficient power, then applying power as shown on the second video would have verified the wiring between the generator and the regulator.

It does not sound like the generator was tested as described in the video, rather it was taken to someone else that said “it’s good”. The lingering question is how good was it?

Mine spun but when full fielded, but only showed minimal voltage that would never climb. $80 and 5 minutes of install time and my new battery was getting the juice it wanted via a replacement generator.
I decided to stick with a generator because Ive had issues with having to rev the engine up to excite the alternator and I didn’t think the old 3 cylinder diesel would do it. Now I just start it up and it works like it was originally designed to do.

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JMOR

01-21-2019 14:03:53




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeIf towel is thrown, it makes little difference now, but ~1.4V is what you get on residual magnetization, with no contribution of field coil current. It will spin on residual and should slow down when field current is added. If you still want to mess with it, I would connect an amp meter in the wire from battery hot to field and measure current. Expect a couple of amperes. I suspect that you may not have field current. Actually, we don't even know if you have the correct generator for that tractor?

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Full Spool

01-21-2019 13:52:39




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
I am throwing in the towel and going 12v. I did the YouTube test and the generator spins and acts as a motor but the generator voltage output is 1.4 volts which doesn’t make since . It should be at least 7.5v.



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Full Spool

01-21-2019 13:51:39




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
I followed similar wiring diagrams and still nothing. polarized by hitting BAT and Field. took the generator to a shop and he said it was good and still no charging . Jumped the VR and still no charging and all continuinity test performed passed.



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JMOR

01-21-2019 10:31:36




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  



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JMOR

01-21-2019 10:22:37




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seesure not much of a VR test!



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Apache_58

01-21-2019 09:40:53




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Positively identify the field wire at the generator and regulator side of things.
Test your regulator. If you follow this method, you have a couple wires to verify.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tSJxCNLgL2w



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Larry NCKS

01-21-2019 09:31:03




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Wiring diagrams have been discussed up one side and down the other on this forum. Do a search for 01 AND wiring diagram. They'll pop up. They're also in the Ford Service Manual for 55 to 64 tractors.



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Full Spool

01-21-2019 08:24:56




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
I took the generator to the starter shop and the generator tested fine .
Anyone have a wiring diagram for this tractor ? I am going to go over it with a fine tooth comb . Old VR doesnt work and new VR doesnt charge , even after polarizing.



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Apache_58

01-20-2019 10:03:22




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Having just gone through this same issue on my tractor and successfully fixed it, I would suggest you start with testing the generator as I suggested. That isolates ALL of your wiring and everything else that could be wrong.
It’s easy to do and takes 10-15 minutes. If your generator isn’t producing enough voltage, you can proceed directly to fixing your problem instead on messing around with stuff that’s probably perfectly fine.
“Full fielding” is what they are doing towards the end of that video I linked to.
Get yourself a couple alligator clipped jumper wires, it makes it easy.

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JMOR

01-20-2019 09:18:00




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeYours should be a Type-B and what you said BATT to ARM will polarize IF the field contacts in the VR are making contact closed. The more recognized procedure for Type-B is to remove the field wire and connect battery voltage to generator Field terminal and then re-connect field wire.



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Full Spool

01-20-2019 09:03:33




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Jumper wire from BAT to ARM on VR



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JMOR

01-20-2019 08:37:53




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Did you follow the Type-A or Type-B polarization procedure?



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Full Spool

01-20-2019 06:51:37




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
The manual I have said 1957 so I Assumed is was a 57 model . I will look for a serial number and look it up somehow.
I just got the tractor and the battery was hooked up negative ground and hasnt charged a battery in over 30 years according to the owners dad bought it new on the 50s. They kept a battery tender on it all these years .
I will start digging through the system , I wanted to keep the originality of it being a 6v as the tractor isnt a work horse anymore.
Wiring is as followed on VR

BAT to resistor block

ARM to armature on generator
Field to field on generator
Ground on VR mounting tab to Generator Ground lug
I will follow all of these suggestions and report back.

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Larry NCKS

01-20-2019 05:34:23




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Until 1965, all non-diesel engine Ford tractors came from the factory as 6 volt positive ground systems.
If you have a pre-65 gasoline engine Ford tractor that is negative ground, it's either been modified . . . or someone didn't know what they were doing when replacing the battery!



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Larry NCKS

01-20-2019 05:29:49




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

Tim, where do you get these crazy ideas? Voltage can be checked anywhere in the electrical system. It's actually best to check it at the generator first, to ascertain whether the generator is working properly!



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Larry NCKS

01-20-2019 05:25:23




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Don't let us lead you astray! I see lots of erroneous advise in the replies to this post.

1. Yes this tractor as it came from the factory, even though an 861 was not produced as a '57 model, is a 6V positive ground.

2. Voltage can be checked anywhere in the electrical system! Generator, regulator, wiring, battery; it doesn't matter. Once you've verified that your voltage is not correct, full field your generator. Check the results at the generator armature terminal.

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Tim PloughNman Daley

01-20-2019 03:25:06




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
I believe you have incorrect wiring and are troubleshooting wrong. 1.5 Volts? You'd need to check the VR to see volts. The generator output is 20 AMPS. The Voltage Regulator specs are: Cutout Closing Voltage = 6.0 - 6.6 VOLTS; Voltage Limiter = 7.1 - 7.5 VOLTS; cutout opening current (reverse) = 6 AMPS maximum. Do you have a copy of the I&T/CLYMER F-20 Manual? Is the fan belt tight? Often the belt tensioner is neglected and a sloppy belt will never allow the generator to perform/charge correctly. I also concur with the other few who say that just replacing parts on a whim is not very logical. One needs to perform a true root cause problem solving method to determine if a part is defective before replacing. Chances are your old VR is perfectly fine. You say, "...wiring appears good.." It's good to do a visual inspection on all wires to verify connections are made and that the insulation isn't cracked and weathered, but, there is more to just that. You must verify that the system is WIRED CORRECTLY and for that you need an OEM schematic/diagram detailing which wire goes where. Don't assume they are and don't go by colors. Colors do not conduct electrons and most aftermarket wiring harnesses today do not follow the OEM color codes. Continuity testing is the key -not idiot test lights. You can use a test light, which requires power, once you have verified the wires are all going to where they are supposed to be. Your generator output should be 20 amps. The F-20 Manual has a motoring test procedure. It will also determine if the VR is good or bad. When running, does the ammeter show a charge or discharge? The dash lamp warning could very well be a bad wiring, not a non-charging issue. Start with the basic things. If you have lights in the circuit, disconnect them for now, once root cause is determined you can reconnect them: (1) Verify Wiring is all correct (2) perform generator motoring test if no issues found at step #1 (3) tune-up -be sure distributor has been tuned correctly, meaning points set and ignition timed (4) ensure the battery is good -it must sustain a full charge under load. Simply attaching a charger does not do that. Get it checked at a starter/alternator shop. Once back running, invest in a Battery Tender to keep it ready to go when not in use.

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

*9N653I* & *8NI55I3*

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Apache_58

01-19-2019 20:26:49




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
I kind of went the wrong route when fixing my charging system and didn’t isolate the generator from the system and fully tested it. Had I done that I would have fixed it much sooner. Some advice here was if it spins, 99% of the time it’s the regulator.
Not true - it will spin weakly while still being faulty. That was what threw me off.
Other problems I had...after exposing a little more of the wiring loom and checking colors against the wiring diagram, someone previously had hooked the regulator wires up wrong. The colors might be hard to see. I scratched some off with a pocket knife and took a photo of it with my phone and zoomed in. A magnifying glass would work too...but first test that generator and report back.

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Apache_58

01-19-2019 20:25:08




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Is your tractor supposed to be positive ground?

Of course pay attention to that positive ground issue when watching that video. Mine system was negative ground.



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sunbeam

01-19-2019 20:12:08




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Full field the generator jumper the field term to the armiture term start tractor and check voltage. Voltage should increase with RPM no increase generator increase regulator.



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Apache_58

01-19-2019 20:09:22




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Is your tractor supposed to be positive ground?

Of course pay attention to that positive ground issue when watching that video. Mine system was negative ground.



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Apache_58

01-19-2019 19:57:07




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
I kind of went the wrong route when fixing my charging system and didn’t isolate the generator from the system and fully tested it. Had I done that I would have fixed it much sooner. Some advice here was if it spins, 99% of the time it’s the regulator.
Not true - it will spin weakly while still being faulty. That was what threw me off.
Other problems I had...after exposing a little more of the wiring loom and checking colors against the wiring diagram, someone previously had hooked the regulator wires up wrong. The colors might be hard to see. I scratched some off with a pocket knife and took a photo of it with my phone and zoomed in. A magnifying glass would work too...but first test that generator and report back.

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Apache_58

01-19-2019 19:49:35




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
First thing is to test the generator. Forget about everything else.
This test has to be fully completed before messing with anything else. Don’t go replacing what might be a quality regulator with a cheap $15 regulator just to try for an easy fix. When you fry your $200 battery and burn your tractor to the ground (because of a cheapo regulator), it will not seem like such a good deal.
Watch this video

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RjLW_eb3D-c

Follow the instructions carefully. If it fails the tests, either take the generator apart and look for easy fixes (like worn brushes ), or buy a new one. You may have to swap over some parts..maybe not, so be careful about turning the old one in for a core too quickly.
When motor tested, it should spin vigorously like a motor, not just slowly or weakly.
If it spins vigorously, test the output capacity. The video covers this as well.
If the capacity tests good then report back and we can go from there.

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Full Spool

01-19-2019 19:28:27




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

I made sure of that by sanding the contact points and checking
Continuity . I am out of ideas???



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Ridge Pole

01-19-2019 19:11:52




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 Re: Ford 861 power master charging issues in reply to Full Spool, 01-19-2019 17:33:54  
Make sure that new voltage regulator has a good ground to the frame of the tractor.



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