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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
:

Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners

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Texasmark1

01-12-2019 06:06:57




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Just trolling for info on the subject. Never had a problem but just curious. Does it have anything specifically to do with sleeved engines vs cast in cylinders? Compression have anything to do with it, like diesel vs gas, 2x compression. Old coolant? Coolant additives? Ion entrapment filters (spin on) in coolant circulation loop type things. How long does it take to burn through?

Thanks,

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Deutz Lover

01-13-2019 20:25:04




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 Re: Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners in reply to Texasmark1, 01-12-2019 06:06:57  
Ultrasonic cleaners basically work the same as the mechanism causing the causing the cavitation from diesel ignition. The cleaners work at 20-25 kilohertz or 40 kilohertz.
The microscopic bubbles formed collapse jetting extemely high temperature water (up to 5,000 degrees Celsius). The temperature is very short lived and very localized.
In a lab environment I saw how prolonged use created fissures in an ultrasonic tungsten carbide tissue grinder head. It looked like it had very tiny holes in it not unlike very fine sponge cake.

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Deutz Lover

01-13-2019 10:49:22




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 Re: Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners in reply to Texasmark1, 01-12-2019 06:06:57  
I think a more proper term instead of bridge is tie bar. I could not remember the term until this morning.
Ford did two things.

They started casting the blocks with external webbing and with the tie bar. I don't know the exact date, but I think they began putting these in the 6810S models made in Mexico in 1989. Some of the eariest ones have a 4.4 inch stroke while most have a 5 inch stroke. I cannot tell unless I look at them. This was in essence the beginning of the Genesis engines.

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Deutz Lover

01-12-2019 14:24:08




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 Re: Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners in reply to Texasmark1, 01-12-2019 06:06:57  
Apparently Ford solved some of the problems when they put a bridge between the cylinder wall casting and the block.This immobilized the cylinders so they did not vibrate during diesel ignition. I think it was worse in direct injection engines. This also changed when they went to electromechanical/electronic multiple firing injection points during the compression cycle. Rather than one big bang there were smaller ignitions that did not create the cavitation problems that a single point injection cycle did. This is also why the diesels don't rattle as loudly as they used to.

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Texasmark1

01-13-2019 06:46:19




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 Re: Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners in reply to Deutz Lover, 01-12-2019 14:24:08  
Any idea on that time line for the bridge and engine family affected?



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Bern

01-13-2019 06:56:23




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 Re: Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners in reply to Texasmark1, 01-13-2019 06:46:19  
https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ford&th=660188



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Texasmark1

01-13-2019 16:04:16




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 Re: Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners in reply to Bern, 01-13-2019 06:56:23  
Thanks Bern!



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JMOR

01-12-2019 11:23:22




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 Re: Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners in reply to Texasmark1, 01-12-2019 06:06:57  
it has been my understanding that both wet sleeve and parent bore engines suffer cavitation, but dry sleeve engines do not. No coolant against cylinder to cavitate.



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Texasmark1

01-13-2019 06:30:18




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 Re: Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners in reply to JMOR, 01-12-2019 11:23:22  
Dry sleeve like today's customary practice of aluminum cast blocks around steel sleeves, like on smaller engines.....riding lawn mowers for an example? I had a wet sleeve JD 4020 I overhauled once....found out why the little weep holes on the side of the block were there......after I bought it......of course.



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sotxbill

01-12-2019 08:22:15




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 Re: Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners in reply to Texasmark1, 01-12-2019 06:06:57  
I suspect cavitation is a diesel problem due to supersonic soundwaves... and corrosion is common to both. When injection pressures increased, a better, quicker explosion occurred in the diesel engines. Creating soundwaves that were now supersonic, and they, like all traveling waves, add and subtract based on phase. And at one point in the path, they magically add to a peak on a continuous basis. At that specific point, the make the coolant molecules move violently creating the bubble and then the bubble collapses again. Over time, this movement acts as a microscopic jack hammer and will slowly work on any material around it... and after 250,000-325,000 miles in the ford powerstrokes, you have a pin hole in the block. Every engine design will have its ""magic"" spot where the soundwaves are in phase and at peak. The impurities in the coolant can accelerate the cavitation problem and also, additives the break down the surface tension of the water can greatly help decrease this phenomenon. Every bit of engine design, as to injector location, piston types, block design will vary where the "magic" location will occur. And its partial soundwave and shock wave, at least in my thinking.

Just thinking aloud here so maybe not. But a surface tension, anti cavitation treatment on those newer higher pressure, direct injection engines cant hurt. On older engines, and those with indirect injection, it was not a problem.

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Texasmark1

01-13-2019 06:44:57




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 Re: Cavitation damage to cylinders/liners in reply to sotxbill, 01-12-2019 08:22:15  
Few points:

1. had a mechanic friend with a Ford customer with the problem in his F150. Guy finds a used block, goes through the Magnaflux process and block seems to be ok. Tears down, replaces, builds back up.....was there when he did the first run-up.......er ah.....same problem in the replacement block....boy did I feel for him.

2. Was in the ww parking lot the other day and a new GMC 2500HD with the Duramax and Allison pulls in along side of me....could barely hear the engine running. None of that jing jing jing I hear with the neighbors F-250 Ford a few years old.

3. I can see how multiple cylinders at different engine rpms can/could put out a spectrum of peaks and valleys that could sync up. Interesting how fluids can erode hard surfaces...like river rocks for example.

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