960 PTO question (part 2)

A while back I posted that I was having some trouble with my new 960's PTO engage lever. After working fine the first couple of times I used it, it refused to move by hand. Someone suggested that I give it a little tap with a hammer. I used a rubber mallet, and sure enough, I was able to engage and disengage with a little tap. Figured that "some day" I'd have to take a closer look. A few days ago, I was doing some brush hogging and had to tap the lever into position, but when it was time to disengage, it would not move. I gave if a few taps... a little harder than I have in the past, but still nothing. I didn't want to bend anything.

Now, when I let the clutch out, it grinds a little bit when the PTO spins. I only drove it far enough to get it back into the barn. Went back out the next day to take a look. With the tractor turned off, the PTO turns easily enough, but still has that grinding noise when I let the clutch out.

Didn't hit anything while brush hogging. I did notice that the plate around the PTO lever is not painted like the rest of the tractor, so I suspect that something was replaced at some point before I bought it.

The 960 is still a pretty new machine to me. I'm hoping that someone might be able to guide me through the troubleshooting procedure to narrow down and resolve the problem. For instance, if I remove the plate around the PTO engage lever, will I be able to see anything useful? Are there any fluids that will come out if I remove this plate?

Hope someone has some similar experience and can give me a "that's an easy fix" solution (hey... a guy has to be optimistic right? I'm dreading the "that's going to be expensive" answer).
 

You should be able to see what is happening once you remove the cover. Oil could come out or not when you remove it because the bottom of the cover is at nearly the same level as the oil.
 
What ShowCrop said...

Here's parts diagram of what to expect once your remove the shift cover.

Ensure item #2 isn't loose or bent as it could cause difficult PTO engagement.

mvphoto24528.jpg
 
OK... original problem described above.

It's a Saturday, and raining outside, so I'm thinking of "going in" to see if I can figure out what's going on. Fluids were just changed this spring, so I kind of hate to drain fluids. Is this a mistake, or will I still be able to see what's in there with the fluid inside? The 960 is new to me. Is it like my 8n where the fluid is generally filled just to the level of the bottom hole of the plate?

Here are a few of the questions I have...
1.) Do I have to remove the PTO engagement lever before taking the access plate off? I believe it is attached with a rivet. If I have to remove the rivet, how does one go about doing so?
2.) Looking at the exploded view above, I can see lots of parts, but still have a hard time visualizing what happens when the lever is moved forward or backwards. In a normal, working situation, what is supposed to happen that causes the PTO to engage or disengage?
3.) Since I am not able to move the engagement lever, what exactly should I be looking for as a possible cause once I get the plate off?
4.) Are the likely culprits of the problem most likely to be addressed through this side port, or is this more for diagnosis, and a larger tear down necessary for repair?

Basically, if someone can give me the "PTO's for Dummies" version of "this is what is supposed to happen / this is what could be happening / and this is what you might have to do to fix the problem" that would be wonderful. Never done anything like this before, but am trying to learn to be more self sufficient when it comes to this tractor (kind of out of necessity as I've had a hard time finding anyone local who could do it for me).

Picture of side plate attached simply to show that it appears that someone had some work done before I bought this tractor this summer (not painted like the rest of the tractor).
mvphoto25863.jpg
 

It has been a long time since I had one of these opened up. But the oil question is still in my prior answer. Just use your dip stick. The fork, part 10, is attached to the shaft that your handle is mounted on and it comes off with the cover, no need to remove the handle. The fork engages the shift collar, part 12, to slide the collar easily back and forth with finger tip effort, until the shaft gets twisted as yours is. With the cover removed you will be able to see whether it is the front or rear shaft that has a twist in it. The rear shaft is available on this site.
 

It has been a long time since I had one of these opened up. But the oil question is still in my prior answer. Just use your dip stick. The fork, part 10, is attached to the shaft that your handle is mounted on and it comes off with the cover, no need to remove the handle. The fork engages the shift collar, part 12, to slide the collar easily back and forth with finger tip effort, until the shaft gets twisted as yours is. With the cover removed you will be able to see whether it is the front or rear shaft that has a twist in it. The rear shaft is available on this site.
 
OK... the update. First of all, thanks for your earlier replies. They gave me a much better idea of what to look for.

I took the side plate off and took some pictures. The picture shows what I saw. I was assuming the gray piece of metal in the middle is the sliding collar that connects the 2 splined shafts that people have talked about (after all, I see 2 splined shafts here). However, I was informed on another site that the 2 splined shafts in this picture are not what I need to be concerned with, and that the PTO sliding coupler is under the oil and to the left, and that I will need to drain the oil to see it. I kind of assumed that when I turned the PTO shaft by hand that the splined shafts I see in the picture should turn, but that isn't the case, so I guess I still am not quite understanding how everything functions together (the big picture).

I can see near the bottom of the photo (down in the oil), what I assume is where the PTO shifter fork is supposed to sit to engage and disengage. I'm still trying to visualize how the PTO shifter fork engages and disengages the PTO. So, based on the picture posted here... Any suggestions?

1.) Go ahead and drain the oil? (almost brand new, but I suppose I can catch it in a clean bucket and reuse it).
2.) How likely is it that things can be freed up / fixed to work normally again? Or am I basically determining what needs to be replaced? (Best case scenario / Worst case scenario)
3.) Once the oil is drained, will I be able to see / photograph through this side opening things in enough detail that people here would be able to see / help analyze what the problem is? (since I'm still not sure exactly what I am looking for)
4.) Would I have a much better view of things and better angles if I removed any other covers?
5.) Anything else you can see in the picture that isn’t normal (still not sure what “normal” is supposed to look like)?
mvphoto25952.jpg
 

See if you can move the rail which is just under the oil level back and forth. It should move with resistance because it is moving the coupler that joins the rear PTO shaft onto the PTO countershaft which is in the transmission. A little twist of the PTO shaft at the rear of the tractor can help it to mesh. If it moves a little way very freely it means that the nut has probably backed off the rail and part # 2 is loose as Dollar Bill pointed out. If you don't see a problem with part #2 your next step would be to look at the countershaft in the transmission on the other side of the bulkhead. To do this you need to remove the transmission cover and drain the oil down in order to see it. This is straight forward EXCEPT for the key that locates the shift lever to the shaft under the cover. You need to keep the spring under the lever under control also.
 
That's some good, specific advice. Exactly what I need. If the nut (#2 in the exploded view above) has come loose, is there any possible way I can reach that from my PTO cover opening, or is further opening going to be called for?

Unfortunately, it will probably be Saturday before I have a chance to get at it again. Once I drain the oil and try moving the rail, I will update here. Thanks so much.
 
(quoted from post at 18:26:32 10/28/18) That's some good, specific advice. Exactly what I need. If the nut (#2 in the exploded view above) has come loose, is there any possible way I can reach that from my PTO cover opening, or is further opening going to be called for?

Unfortunately, it will probably be Saturday before I have a chance to get at it again. Once I drain the oil and try moving the rail, I will update here. Thanks so much.

As others have said, the rail should not move back and forth a little, ( loose nut ) it takes a little force by hand to move it in and out of engagement. It might be possible to get your hand in there but getting torque on it might be tough, maybe a crows foot. Here are some pics that might give you a better idea of what it looks like. Good luck.
mvphoto26023.jpg


mvphoto26024.jpg


mvphoto26025.jpg
 
You should be able to reach the PTO shift fork. Pix shows bent and worn fork for comparison.

mvphoto26032.jpg


If the fork checks out, go with SC's sound advice and confirm a twisted PTO shaft. You may have to remove the PTO shaft to fully evaluate the twist. If it's twisted a lot, it will require force to get it out.
 
I know its been a long time since this post, but I left the 960 sit over the winter and just used my 8n for all the smaller tasks that I needed done. However, the 960 was purchased to run some hay equipment, and I will be haying very soon, so I dug into the 960 today. I drained fluids. Things were jammed up and no amount of wiggling and turning would disengage the PTO, so I finally loosened the 4 bolts holding the PTO in and pulled the PTO shaft. Found that the end of the PTO shaft had a twist to it. Not terrible, but noticeable. I'm actually pretty happy to find this, because at least I'm not sitting here completely stumped. I think I can handle replacing the PTO shaft myself. A couple of questions... when you order a replacement, does it come as a single complete unit to replace the part I pulled? And... any recommendations as to best place to order the replacement. Probably won't get it before I need to get hay cut, but the sooner the better. Thanks for the guidance and tips along the line. I will update when the new PTO shaft is installed and I'm up and running (fingers crossed). Thanks again!
mvphoto37361.jpg

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(quoted from post at 12:50:02 06/08/19) I know its been a long time since this post, but I left the 960 sit over the winter and just used my 8n for all the smaller tasks that I needed done. However, the 960 was purchased to run some hay equipment, and I will be haying very soon, so I dug into the 960 today. I drained fluids. Things were jammed up and no amount of wiggling and turning would disengage the PTO, so I finally loosened the 4 bolts holding the PTO in and pulled the PTO shaft. Found that the end of the PTO shaft had a twist to it. Not terrible, but noticeable. I'm actually pretty happy to find this, because at least I'm not sitting here completely stumped. I think I can handle replacing the PTO shaft myself. A couple of questions... when you order a replacement, does it come as a single complete unit to replace the part I pulled? And... any recommendations as to best place to order the replacement. Probably won't get it before I need to get hay cut, but the sooner the better. Thanks for the guidance and tips along the line. I will update when the new PTO shaft is installed and I'm up and running (fingers crossed). Thanks again!
mvphoto37361.jpg

[/img]

Yes it could have been much worse. You had better leave those 100 HP implements to the bigger tractors, LOL. You can order the shaft here at YT and yes it comes as a kit with, I believe, bearing, seal, and gasket. While ordering it get a couple engine oil plug gaskets. Also clean the underside of your power steering cylinder rod every time you use the tractor.
 
Ordered a new PTO shaft from here. It was tricky from the day I got it last summer. Sometimes it would engage, sometimes I had to tap it into place, finally it wouldn't disengage. I think the twist must have been there when I bought it. I didn't run anything really big or hit anything that could have done this while brush hogging. I drained the fluids from all 3 areas in order to troubleshoot. What are the chances that when I put them back in (they had been changed just before I bought the tractor and look good) that the hydraulics will need something done to get them working properly? I hear people talking here about having to "prime" things. Is that likely?
 

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