850 wont start... trying to rotate engine to troubleshoot.

Getting 12.4 volts to starter, so electrical is working fine. When I tried to start it, it would just go cachunk each time I pressed the button, and not start. Looked like the fan might have rotated a tiny bit each time, but couldn't really tell.

Anyway, I took the starter off to look at it, and then I saw people saying you should try to rotate the engine to make sure it isn't seized (i guess that's the reason).

This isn't my tractor, but this is called the crankshaft pulley, right? With the gearshift in neutral, and with a cement block holding the clutch down, should I be able to spin it by hand? Because I cant. Is that normal?

The bush hog attachment is hooked up, and sitting on the ground, if that matters.

PBJmBnV.png
 
Andrea the Giant might, but for most of us we need some leverage to rotate it against compression and friction. A wrench on crank bolt or in 4th gear and push against those big 'ol rear tire lugs.
 
Since you have the starter off,use a large screwdriver to pry on ring gear. Make sure pto is in neutral or better still,disconect shaft until you finish what you are doing.
 
(quoted from post at 21:23:56 10/14/18) Andrea the Giant might, but for most of us we need some leverage to rotate it against compression and friction. A wrench on crank bolt or in 4th gear and push against those big 'ol rear tire lugs.

Ok. I was giving it all I had, but still might not be enough. Bush hog attachment is on ground, so dont think I can move wheels... guess I could disconnect it though.

Might be overthinking this... if it's normally super hard to turn the CS pulley, then maybe I'll just go ahead and work on the starter.

There has been an ongoing issue where I would need to hit the start button 3 or 4 times sometimes before it started... I would have to tap the button with real short presses and eventually it would fire up. Might have been the starter going bad for a while.

When I tried today, though, it just cachunked several times, but it never fired up like it normally would do... so I was just wanting to make sure it wasn't seized or 'hydrolocked'.

And the reason I say that, is because I 'did' accidentally try to start it when all the spark plugs werent screwed in tight, and that was the last time it cranked. It almost started, but didn't... then the starter button fried and I ended up putting a new button/battery/solenoid on it.

I was wondering if loose spark plugs might have let oil up where it shouldn't be... if that's even possible, and if it would even cause an issue. You think that would have done anything?
 
(quoted from post at 21:49:36 10/14/18) Since you have the starter off,use a large screwdriver to pry on ring gear. Make sure pto is in neutral or better still,disconect shaft until you finish what you are doing.

You mean on the teeth in the hole where the starter goes? Yeah I could try that. I'll disconnect the bush hog attachment. Thanks.
 
(quoted from post at 23:54:25 10/14/18)
(quoted from post at 21:49:36 10/14/18) Since you have the starter off,use a large screwdriver to pry on ring gear. Make sure pto is in neutral or better still,disconect shaft until you finish what you are doing.

You mean on the teeth in the hole where the starter goes? Yeah I could try that. I'll disconnect the bush hog attachment. Thanks.
Yes,the teeth where starter goes. You shouldn't have to"give it all you got"to turn the engine with the screwdriver. Unhooking the brush hog might solve the whole situation.
 
Try pulling the spark plugs completely when you try to turn it with a wrench and cheater bar on the pulley nut or when you try to turn it via the ring gear with a screwdriver. If there's fluid in the cylinders it might be hydrolocked and removing the plugs will give the liquid somewhere to go. Plus it will get rid of any resistance due to compression.
 
Okay here are some videos... I cant get it to budge no matter what I try. Is it locked up, or am I doing something wrong?


Showing it in neutral and the brush hog disconnected... all 4 spark plugs out. Clutch held down with concrete block. With both hands, giving it about all I can using this wrench on the center crankshaft pulley bolt, it wont budge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pGDfb0Kcek


This is showing me trying to spin the gear where the starter hooks up. Tractor neutral, clutch depressed, no spark plugs. It moved a tiny bit once, but couldn't get it to go any more. (It's difficult to get any force on it, though).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgFo3oxUzD8


Here I am trying to spin the PTO shaft. Tractor in neutral, clutch is not depressed... first I spin it with the PTO lever disengaged, then I engage the PTO lever and it wont turn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egba...ature=youtu.be
 
When was the engine last known to be able to spin? From the pictures it looks like it may have sat for a while, in which case the rings might be stuck.
 
(quoted from post at 14:36:09 10/15/18) When was the engine last known to be able to spin? From the pictures it looks like it may have sat for a while, in which case the rings might be stuck.

I've been using it all year. The last time it worked was probably a week ago. It died on me in the field while I was driving it, and it just sounded like a normal fuel issue or something when it shut down.

It felt like it had low power when I was using it... frequently bogging down... so I stopped for a minute to think about why it was performing like that, and that's when it died. It sounded just like a fuel issue when it died, sputtering and stopping while I tried to choke it to keep it going.

I figured it was fuel or maybe spark plugs bad... but when it died, I couldn't restart it because the battery started dying while I was trying to restart it.

That led to me replacing the battery and solenoid, and when I tried to start it back up, nothing.
 
(quoted from post at 17:53:37 10/15/18)
(quoted from post at 14:36:09 10/15/18) When was the engine last known to be able to spin? From the pictures it looks like it may have sat for a while, in which case the rings might be stuck.

I've been using it all year. The last time it worked was probably a week ago. It died on me in the field while I was driving it, and it just sounded like a normal fuel issue or something when it shut down.

It felt like it had low power when I was using it... frequently bogging down... so I stopped for a minute to think about why it was performing like that, and that's when it died. It sounded just like a fuel issue when it died, sputtering and stopping while I tried to choke it to keep it going.

I figured it was fuel or maybe spark plugs bad... but when it died, I couldn't restart it because the battery started dying while I was trying to restart it.

That led to me replacing the battery and solenoid, and when I tried to start it back up, nothing.
rankcase have any oil in it?
 
crankcase have any oil in it?

Yes, oil dipstick is at normal level.

I just changed the hydraulic/transmission/rear axle fluids.

The hydraulic fluid showed empty on the dipstick, but when I drained that chamber there was still a good bit of fluid in it.
 

Well, it is stuck, that is for sure, but it has nothing to do with trying to start it with the plugs loose. I would drain the crankcase oil to see what it looks like.
 
(quoted from post at 19:15:19 10/15/18)
Well, it is stuck, that is for sure.

Yeah, it's starting to look that way. :(

When I put the new battery/solenoid on and tried to start it, it was making some pretty hard kachunks without cranking. I immediately thought locked engine, because I have had several lawnmower engines blow, and they behaved similarly.

The only bit of hope I was holding onto, was that I never heard a catastrophic failure, like when my lawnmower rods broke.

Someone suggested jacking up one of the rear wheels, putting it in 5th gear, and trying to rock the wheel to see if it will rotate. Might try that, but if that doesn't work, then it's probably done.
 
I need a long tire tool to usually turn one over. Your starter drive gear might be busted and holding the ring gear. You can take off the weep hole plate under the tranny and look in there with a mirror, bright sunlight on the mirror will illuminate it good but you have to catch the light at the right angle. If you have a smartphone you can stick it in there and take a pic. A snake camera is best. I would watch out for a gear piece that might be against the hydraulic tubes. You get the best turning power with a screwdriver through the timing hole cover.
 
Jacked up one rear tire... pulled spark plugs, no starter, 5th gear and it wouldn't budge... so yeah guess it's locked up.

Here's a video... at first I have it in neutral, then I put it in 5th. You cant really see the ring gear because the camera is shaking, but it was barely moving either way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA_vqJl79bY


I would watch out for a gear piece that might be against the hydraulic tubes. You get the best turning power with a screwdriver through the timing hole cover.

Ok thanks.



(quoted from post at 04:14:08 10/16/18) You might try removing your hydraulic pump. That's one last bastion of hope against a stuck engine.

I changed the fluids the other day. The hydraulic dipstick was dry, but there was still a good amount of fluid in the chamber when i drained it. Low hydraulic fluid wouldn't have anything to do with this, would it?
 
I changed the fluids the other day. The hydraulic dipstick was dry, but there was still a good amount of fluid in the chamber when i drained it. Low hydraulic fluid wouldn't have anything to do with this, would it?

It may . . . in a round about way. If the hydraulic pump became seized it could be your major problem. Also, I don't recall that anyone asked you to block or tie your clutch pedal down. With it held down, does that change your ability to roll your engine over? With the hydraulic pump off does that allow your engine to rotate? I'm thinking trying it with your wrench on the front of the crankshaft as before.
 
Did you have oil pressure when it was running before? Did it do any knocking before it quit? An engine under load wont knock even when its burning up a bearing. Drain the oil and see whats in the bottom of your pan after you pour the oil in a jug. I guess your starter gear was alright but I've heard of people finding pieces of an old starter gear in the tranny clutch housing.
 
Drain the oil and see whats in the bottom of your pan after you pour the oil in a jug.

I drained the oil and dropped the oil pan today.

First of all there was only 2 quarts of oil in it, which was strange, because I checked it multiple times, and the level was up to the hatch marks on the dipstick.

Would having only 2 quarts in the crankcase, cause it to overheat and lock up?

I really dont know why it showed full on the dipstick, and I am quite certain that I checked it several times.

The oil was black, and looked normal... however, there was a good bit of some type of material in the pan... is this a clue to anything? It's like a really hard/brittle plastic material... sort of like the hard plastic packaging they use on stuff you buy.

There was about twice as much as this... maybe a little more... but here is some I pulled out:

i0doex2.png


x5hkhrl.png


dvwMsWE.png
 

I'm not where I can look at a dipstick. However, if memory serves, up to the hash marks is not full. It is the add point. Even still that should be 4 quarts. 2 quarts in that engine could very easily be problematic.


As to the debris that you describe as plastic, I'm not coming up with what should be in that engine that would produce that much plastic. Maybe someone else can, but in 850 days I'm not thinking there would be that much plastic in an engine.
 
(quoted from post at 01:29:57 10/27/18)
I'm not where I can look at a dipstick. However, if memory serves, up to the hash marks is not full. It is the add point. Even still that should be 4 quarts. 2 quarts in that engine could very easily be problematic.

You might be right. It was about midway in the crosshatch area, and I thought that meant it was ok, because that's how lawnmowers/cars usually have it. It's possible it should have been well over the crosshatch, up to where the dipstick changes from flat to round.

The manual says the tractor takes 5 US quarts, including filter. There was only 2 quarts in it, including the filter (no oil was in the canister, but the filter paper fins were saturated). So, looks like it was a low oil condition.

I also took a magnet to the material I posted, and it is definitely metallic. I guess it is thin slivers of metal that turned black and brittle. Any idea where it could have come from, or could it be from anywhere?

With all that in mind, what do you guys think? Is there a possibility of repairing/rebuilding, or is it past the point of saving?
 
(quoted from post at 12:42:15 10/27/18)
(quoted from post at 01:29:57 10/27/18)
I'm not where I can look at a dipstick. However, if memory serves, up to the hash marks is not full. It is the add point. Even still that should be 4 quarts. 2 quarts in that engine could very easily be problematic.

You might be right. It was about midway in the crosshatch area, and I thought that meant it was ok, because that's how lawnmowers/cars usually have it. It's possible it should have been well over the crosshatch, up to where the dipstick changes from flat to round.

The manual says the tractor takes 5 US quarts, including filter. There was only 2 quarts in it, including the filter (no oil was in the canister, but the filter paper fins were saturated). So, looks like it was a low oil condition.

I also took a magnet to the material I posted, and it is definitely metallic. I guess it is thin slivers of metal that turned black and brittle. Any idea where it could have come from, or could it be from anywhere?

With all that in mind, what do you guys think? Is there a possibility of repairing/rebuilding, or is it past the point of saving?

Well shark, everything taken together makes it appear that you have spun a main bearing. Since you already have the pan off checking all of the rod and main bearings is just a few minutes work. You will find where the material came from. You want to also look for bluish discoloration of the metal as an indicator of exactly where the problem is.
 
(quoted from post at 23:36:46 10/27/18)
(quoted from post at 12:42:15 10/27/18)
(quoted from post at 01:29:57 10/27/18)
I'm not where I can look at a dipstick. However, if memory serves, up to the hash marks is not full. It is the add point. Even still that should be 4 quarts. 2 quarts in that engine could very easily be problematic.

You might be right. It was about midway in the crosshatch area, and I thought that meant it was ok, because that's how lawnmowers/cars usually have it. It's possible it should have been well over the crosshatch, up to where the dipstick changes from flat to round.

The manual says the tractor takes 5 US quarts, including filter. There was only 2 quarts in it, including the filter (no oil was in the canister, but the filter paper fins were saturated). So, looks like it was a low oil condition.

I also took a magnet to the material I posted, and it is definitely metallic. I guess it is thin slivers of metal that turned black and brittle. Any idea where it could have come from, or could it be from anywhere?

With all that in mind, what do you guys think? Is there a possibility of repairing/rebuilding, or is it past the point of saving?

Well shark, everything taken together makes it appear that you have spun a main bearing. Since you already have the pan off checking all of the rod and main bearings is just a few minutes work. You will find where the material came from. You want to also look for bluish discoloration of the metal as an indicator of exactly where the problem is.


Unfortunately, I have to agree. The pieces you're seeing are the remains of a crankshaft bearing. This was caused by an oil starvation problem. Pull your main and rod caps and you'll find the problem. This one will need an engine overhaul. The top end might be sludged up and causing oil to be held under the valve cover. That might explain where your oil went. This one is going to need a full tear down and rebuild.
 

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