841 Ford and im losing my mind!

Jkb7663

Member
OK, so I bought an 841 Ford, and that's where my troubles began! It ran when I bought it, though....not very good. So I did the basic stuff to help it out. I cleaned and rebuilt the carb, replaced the exhaust manifold that was cracked, new plugs and wires, new coil, new fuel shut off valve (waste of money) and a new valve cover gasket. Simple stuff, but it still didn't run any better.

The starter button went bad, replaced that. The solenoid went bad, replaced that with the correct one for the tractor, not a car. Now it's difficult to start. So, I replaced the points and condenser and gaped the points between .24 and .26 made sure the firing order was correct (1243). Also replaced the dust cover, rotor, and distributor cap. Then I thought, "man this thing is gonna run like a top". Wrong! It wont start. Melted the positive battery cable....probably due to resistance, so I've been told. So I just replaced the starter, and all the battery cables. Still wont start! It's getting spark in the cylinders, its getting gas, replaced the key switch. Double checked the gap on the points and the plugs. The motor turns great! It wants to start, but it won't. Just hoping that someone here can point me in the right direction as to what else could be wrong.
 
Welcome to the forum.
I'd start by checking the basics. Good spark that will jump 1/4 inch
gap at all four plugs? You said the firing order was correct, 1243 CW,
but is the #1 spark plug wire on the cap where the rotor points
when #1 cylinder is at TDC of the compression stroke? They can
be moved around, and often are after years of wrenching.
 
Frustration is common with newbies on these old Fords when they won't start/run because the understanding of the how's and why's of the electrical system confuse them. I believe the root cause of your issues are due to wrong/incorrect wiring. 99.98% of all non-starting issues are due to bad wiring jobs whether 6V/POS GND or 12V/NEG GND. The problems you are having are typical of 12V conversions gone awry, just plainly done poorly in the first place. You said, "... Melted the positive battery cable....probably due to resistance, so I've been told." That was a huge clue the wiring was all mucked up, not due to a weak cable. Starters don't care if 6V or 12V that isn't your problem and is still good. The first thing to check is the battery. It must sustain a charge under load regardless if 6V or 12V. Yank the battery, get it checked at a reliable shop and while that is being done, verify ALL the wiring is correct via continuity test. Replacing parts with new ones without knowing if good or bad ("...replaced the key switch...") is also a rookie mistake, but we've all done it, so don't take it wrong, just stop for now. Chances are your solenoid even if it was a car unit, wasn't the problem either. Did you set/check the timing after you did the tune up (plugs, rotor, condenser, cap, et al)? Point gap spec is .024" - .026" Plug gap is .025" - .028". You say you set points to .24 -.26. You do know that .25 equals 1/4" right? There is a huge difference between .025 and .25. I don't think points will spread a 1/4" but it is hopefully is just a typo on your part. SEE picture below on timing. Back to your electrical system. You say a 12V battery. "...The solenoid went bad, the starter button went bad..." -how do you know unless the wiring was so mucked it it did indeed fry them. If you 'melted the positive battery cable', it may have indeed fried other things as well. Tell us more: 12V battery, but do you have an alternator too? The generator and Voltage Regulator get removed when doing a 12V switch over job. Replaced the 6V coil with a 12V coil? Wiring is all correct? This last point is the key to your situation. Get a correct wiring diagram and verify your system matches it with no deviations. Disconnect lights before you begin. You can reconnect later once problem is identified, but take them out of the circuit for now. Lights were never factory installed -always dealer options, and many times fellers connect them up wrong, especially on a 12V system. Your I&T F-20 manual and 600/800 Operator's Manuals are your friends.

FORD 600/800 OEM 6V/POS GND ELECTRICAL SYSTEM DIAGRAM:
XANbiZrh.jpg

FORD IGNITION TIMING FOR ANGLE MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR:
sLoESNLh.jpg

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)
 

As Tim said, the melted cable means that there was a serious problem with the cable. When you replace the cable did you get a zero gauge? If not the new cable could still be a problem. If it were still 6V the cable needs to be 00 gauge but 0 is good for 12 V
 
Did you see if it will fire on starting fluid? If it does, then you are not getting gas through the carb. Just make sure of
that. Then I would double check that the plug wires are in the correct order. You have to be sure you know the rotation of the
distributor and a way to verify #1 cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke, not exhaust stroke, when the rotor is pointing
to #1 wire. Also it wouldn't hurt to drag a thin piece of cardboard through the points to be sure they are clean and be sure
they are closing tight.
 
did you get a new 6 volt or "12 volt external resistor required" coil and are running it with a resistor?

Or do you have a direct "12 volt no resistor required" coil and no resistor?

If you have the no resistor coil and are using a resistor that will cause hard start problems
 
Check your ground, check your ground, check your ground. Did anyone mention wether its positive or negative ground?
 
(quoted from post at 05:26:03 09/23/18) Lights were never factory installed -always dealer options, Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

Are you sure about this? We are talking 01 series here. I don't think lights were dealer installed only on these units. Maybe someone else will verify this one way or the other.
 
Wow! Y'all are awesome! This is my first time having to use a forum to figure out whats going wrong, so I'm gonna try to answer all the questions in order.

Battery - brand new, but I still had it checked two days ago just to be sure. No issues have been found with it.

It is a 12v conversion with an alternator. Done by the previous owner....or someone before him. It appears to be done correctly based off of this schematic. I still need to do a continuity test. Headlights are not connected.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi714.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww150%2FNouveau_Redneck%2FHornRelay.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fg-news.co%2Fford-2000-tractor-wiring-diagram-gauge.html&docid=Vl7d1JFIjm2VrM&tbnid=cizrxdRHPyVziM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwjBgNDLrdHdAhUL74MKHesfBpAQMwhVKBUwFQ..i&w=687&h=516&itg=1&bih=938&biw=1920&q=ford%20tractor%2012%20volt%20wiring%20diagram&ved=0ahUKEwjBgNDLrdHdAhUL74MKHesfBpAQMwhVKBUwFQ&iact=mrc&uact=8


Replaced the starter button because it went bad, the coil because I melted it starting the tractor by jumping the solenoid with a screwdriver...... :? The key switch was just a shot in the dark.....

I did not set the timing while/when the tractor was running. How can I do that now that its not running?

Gap set was a typo. Used a feelers gauge. Familiar with the decimal equivalence chart.....hehehehe.

Battery cables came from New Holland, and say 2 gauge all over them.....maybe the gave me the wrong ones?

I reconnected the plug wires to the distributor based off of a picture I took before i took them off when the tractor ran.

I have a "12 volt no resistor required" that the NEG goes to the distributor, and the POS goes to the terminal block.

If it wasn't grounded, would I still get spark at the plugs? (Asking for a friend) But seriously, how do you check to make sure you're getting good ground?

Lets stay on Point Larry. I don't care about the lights right now....but I will later... :)
 
So, what are compression check numbers?
And an answer to the posters question about starting fluid?
 
I haven't checked compression yet. (I probably should have done that first) But, I can smell the gas in the cylinder head. So I believe it's getting gas for combustion.

Also, what gauge wire should be used when doing the 12 volt conversion? the wire they used looks a little thin in my opinion....maybe 16-18 gauge. Seems like it should have been heavier....


:shock:
 
(quoted from post at 10:30:19 09/23/18) Lets stay on Point Larry. I don't care about the lights right now....but I will later... :)

If you want to be on this board, you'll find that we reply to issues as they come up. My reply was mild compared to some of the different tracks we take in reply to a thread!
 
(quoted from post at 12:47:48 09/23/18) I haven't checked compression yet. (I probably should have done that first) But, I can smell the gas in the cylinder head. So I believe it's getting gas for combustion.

Also, what gauge wire should be used when doing the 12 volt conversion? the wire they used looks a little thin in my opinion....maybe 16-18 gauge. Seems like it should have been heavier....


:shock:
6-18 were typical except where charging current flows...12ga. Wire gauge isn't stopping it from starting as long as insulation isn't burning off of them. Getting gas? Well, too much won't run just as too little won't run. Dry your plugs or replace, keep gas turned off and use starting fluid. Never too late for compression test.
 

Just figured if I had a bad wire with no continuity i would replace it with the proper size.

I'll give the starting fluid a try. but what if that doesn't work....? And if it does work, what does that tell me.....besides that its not getting gas/to much gas? Could I just have the carb adjusted wrong? If so, any recommendations? I adjusted it according to the manual with the correction stamped on the bottom of the page.

24041.jpg
[/img]
 
(quoted from post at 13:26:51 09/23/18)
Just figured if I had a bad wire with no continuity i would replace it with the proper size.

I'll give the starting fluid a try. but what if that doesn't work....? And if it does work, what does that tell me.....besides that its not getting gas/to much gas? Could I just have the carb adjusted wrong? If so, any recommendations? I adjusted it according to the manual with the correction stamped on the bottom of the page.

24041.jpg
[/img]
f it does work, it tells us several things. That you have enough compression to run. That you have reasonable spark. That timing must be in ball park. Carb adjustment is 'fine tuning'. Most will at least run regardless of adjustment anywhere except fully seated (CW). We are gathering information from which we may be able to pin point the reason for no run. Without same, we could replace every part, such that no original part remains and still not have a running tractor.
 
You mentionned firing order (1-2-4-3)
If my memory is good... the firing order for this model should be (1-3-4-2)

Good luck

Joe Ferguson
 
(quoted from post at 14:47:00 09/23/18) You mentionned firing order (1-2-4-3)
If my memory is good... the firing order for this model should be (1-3-4-2)

Good luck

Joe Ferguson
ope, 1-2-4-3 CW
 
"If my memory is good... the firing order for this model should be (1-3-4-2)"

Your memory is good for Fergusons, Farmalls and others.
The Fords are 1-2-4-3 though. N series CCW, later CW.

I would still be checking to see where that rotor points when #1
cylinder is on TDC of compression stroke. It may not be where
the cap says it should be or where the manual says it should be.
It doesn't really matter which terminal it is, as long as #1 plug
wire is installed there so it fires at the correct time.
That should make it run, then set it with a timing light.
 
I'm with Royce. You have a timing issue. 841 firing is 1,2,4,3, distributor is turning clock wise. "want's to run" I have the feeling you should grab the distributor and turn it back (counterclockwise)
 
It started with starting fluid! Hallelujah!

Now what? Maybe its not getting enough gas? An oldtimer at the New Holland parts desk did tell me that I could use a brake line for a replacement fuel line. Could the ID of the brake line be to small, and not let enough fuel through? Could it be clogged?.....But the sediment bowl does fill with gas......Hmmmm....

Any thoughts?

You folks have been great so far! I really appreciate the help too!
 
(quoted from post at 23:39:56 09/23/18) It started with starting fluid! Hallelujah!

Now what? Maybe its not getting enough gas? An oldtimer at the New Holland parts desk did tell me that I could use a brake line for a replacement fuel line. Could the ID of the brake line be to small, and not let enough fuel through? Could it be clogged?.....But the sediment bowl does fill with gas......Hmmmm....

Any thoughts?

You folks have been great so far! I really appreciate the help too!
ake the drain plug out of the bottom of carb bowl and see if it will run long enough to fill a pint bottle in 2 minutes. The reason for the 2 minutes is that it may look like good flow until the carb bowl is empty, even if flow into carb from tank is insufficient & thus fool you into thinking all is well.
 

You have one of two things going on then.

you're either not getting gasoline through the carburetor, or you've got a massive vacuum leak on that manifold you replaced.

Remove the plug from the bottom of the carb and turn on the fuel. It should run a steady stream out of there and fill a quart jar fast enough you won't get bored. If that checks out, remove the air intake from the carb and have someone crank it while you hold a rag tightly enough over the mouth of the carb so that it can't get hardly any air. The thing should start and run or fill the carb with fuel. If it doesn't you either need to redo the carb or find your vacuum leak.

If the engine is cranking well spraying starting fluid around the head and intake junction may find a vacuum leak. It usually needs to be running to isolate a leak however. The engine will pick up just a little if you happen to hit the leak with ether.
 
FUEL FLOW; SPARK; COMPRESSION are the three things needed in order to start and run. Forget compression for now. When you rebuilt the carb did you set th float correctly? As mentioned already, but I'll reemphasize, did you perform the fuel flow test correctly at the carb, first via drain plug then thru the fuel line inlet at the brass elbow? Brake and fuel lines are standard 1/4" steel, using special fittings with 7/16-24 UNS threads. So your parts counter guy is right about that. You can buy an exact-as-original fuel line for your tractor, pre-bent to fit perfectly. That isn't your problem either. I'll say it once more. I believe your issues are electrical. You need to address those after you do the fuel flow test. I don't know where you got that wiring diagram, but these Fords never had a horn. I do think the 800's came with headlights and possibly a taillight as OEM. Disconnect them anyway for now while you verify the entire wiring system.

Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)
NAA FUEL LINE
 
(quoted from post at 05:25:10 09/24/18 ) I don't know where you got that wiring diagram, but these Fords never had a horn. Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

If you look closely at the OP's wiring diagram, the horn loop is not black! It's red! Someone has added that loop for some special application. The rest of the wiring diagram [b:89ad852c5a]is correct[/b:89ad852c5a]!
 
No drain plug on the bottom of the carb. If it was electrical, why would it start on starting fluid, but not on gas? Same thing with a vacuum leak?
 

Must not be an OEM carb. I don't know any of them that don't have a bottom drain plug. does it have a tag on it or any other identification?

40 seconds for a pint seems a bit slow to me. I think it ought to do a quart in that amount of time. Wondering what others think here???
 
(quoted from post at 11:06:34 09/24/18)
Must not be an OEM carb. I don't know any of them that don't have a bottom drain plug. does it have a tag on it or any other identification?

40 seconds for a pint seems a bit slow to me. I think it ought to do a quart in that amount of time. Wondering what others think here???
'm never concerned with amount of flow at intermediate points, which is why I specified "from carb bowl drain plug". That is a representation of flow that is available at the point of use & one pint in 2 minutes or less is approximately 2 to 4 times what the engine burns and I have found to be easily & normally available at the bowl drain. If I have that flow, I'm safe.
 
(quoted from post at 05:25:10 09/24/18 ) I'll say it once more. I believe your issues are electrical.

Shall I say it? "I don't think so, Tim!"


Why are you posting a link to an NAA fuel line here? The OP is working on an 841.

[b:1843b1bd4c][color=red:1843b1bd4c]NOTE: This a repeat of a response I posted earlier this morning which disappeared from Modern View but partially stayed on Classic View[/color:1843b1bd4c][/b:1843b1bd4c]
 
Could it be as simple as a stuck float? That was the only part I didn’t replace when I rebuilt the carb.
 
(quoted from post at 12:43:51 09/24/18) Could it be as simple as a stuck float? That was the only part I didn’t replace when I rebuilt the carb.
ou are asking for a guess. Maybe insufficient fuel or too much as far as we know at this point. Measure, measure, diagnose. Unless you have some aftermarket replacement carb, remove the bowl drain plug and measure flow.
 
(quoted from post at 13:45:44 09/24/18) Getting plenty at the sediment bowl, and nothing out of the carb at the drain plug.
omewhat at a disadvantage, not knowing exactly which carb that you have, but.........if the hollow bolt/sediment bulb assembly is done correctly such as to allow flow into the float/needle/seat, then it would appear that the needle/seat is stuck closed. Have you re-routed the fuel line & or turned the sediment bowl 180 from original position where the fitting is normally inclined toward the engine? When plug is out (so that you can observe beginning of flow) sometimes you can get the float/needle to drop by tapping the sturdy part of bowl with a hammer handle or such. Don't hammer it such as to break it! This is not a fix, because even if it temporarily frees it, it will probably stick again. If you replaced the needle with one of those using a soft tip, that is probably the problem. I don't kike those & will re-use a full brass one where ever possible.
 
You need to pull the screen that is up where the bowl meets the metal. There is a square hole that lets gas in but it has to go through the screen to get to the carb. I had one pretty gunked up.
 
Ok. It’s a TSX 662 Marvel Schebler. It does have a drain plug on the bottom. Nothing comes out of it when the gas is turned on.
24129.jpg
 

If you're getting gasoline to the bowl and not out the bottom of the carb, the problem is either in the top of the bowl or in the carb. Smart money would bet on the carb.
 
And.....we're back.

Ok, I'm getting fuel from the tank, to the sediment bowl, and out the drain plug on the bottom of the carb. They are flowing heavy at both points (filling a quart jar in under a min.) It still will NOT start on the gas. It will still start and run on starting fluid. I'm using new fuel (ethanol free 91 octane)
 
Sounds like weak spark at this point. Check the spark across a plug - it should have a pretty good snap to it. What a "good spark" looks like is one of those things that you will know when you see it.

Make sure you are getting full voltage to coil. Could be the key switch is high resistance or coil going bad.
 
(quoted from post at 11:04:43 09/27/18) Sounds like weak spark at this point. Check the spark across a plug - it should have a pretty good snap to it. What a "good spark" looks like is one of those things that you will know when you see it.

Make sure you are getting full voltage to coil. Could be the key switch is high resistance or coil going bad.


Nice deep blue spark, almost purple in every cylinder. The coil is new, as well as the key switch. I called the New Holland service department and they said it sounds like I have a vacuum leak, possibly around the exhaust manifold I replaced. He also said the after market manifolds almost never fit as tight as the factory manifold. We’ll see what a tube of gasket maker helps with.
 
(quoted from post at 14:57:45 09/27/18)
(quoted from post at 11:04:43 09/27/18) Sounds like weak spark at this point. Check the spark across a plug - it should have a pretty good snap to it. What a "good spark" looks like is one of those things that you will know when you see it.

Make sure you are getting full voltage to coil. Could be the key switch is high resistance or coil going bad.


Nice deep blue spark, almost purple in every cylinder. The coil is new, as well as the key switch. I called the New Holland service department and they said it sounds like I have a vacuum leak, possibly around the exhaust manifold I replaced. He also said the after market manifolds almost never fit as tight as the factory manifold. We’ll see what a tube of gasket maker helps with.

You have yet to mention use of the choke, and whether or not the plugs are getting wet. Both of my 172 Fords require use of the choke to start, and if it doesn't start on the first few revs the plugs will be wet. The tractor will not start on a smell of gasoline it must have liquid gasoline to the cylinders when cold.
 
First, what did you change in going from 'no flow out of carb bowl' to 'getting good
flow out of carb bowl'?
A spark checker is far better than the eye/color/sound as far as really quantifying spark voltage. I say that if sparkn starts it on fluid, it will run on gasoline vapor. Maybe a manifold gasket leak?
 
(quoted from post at 16:57:45 09/27/18 )


I called the New Holland service department and they said it sounds like I have a vacuum leak, possibly around the exhaust manifold I replaced. He also said the after market manifolds almost never fit as tight as the factory manifold. We’ll see what a tube of gasket maker helps with.

Shall I say I told you so? . . . or wait 'til you actually get it running by fixing a vacuum leak? ;-)

BTW, the only reason the exhaust manifold has anything to do with it is that it and the intake manifold are one piece on this engine. The intake ports are what you need to seal.
 
(quoted from post at 19:21:33 09/27/18)
(quoted from post at 16:57:45 09/27/18 )


I called the New Holland service department and they said it sounds like I have a vacuum leak, possibly around the exhaust manifold I replaced. He also said the after market manifolds almost never fit as tight as the factory manifold. We’ll see what a tube of gasket maker helps with.

Shall I say I told you so? . . . or wait 'til you actually get it running by fixing a vacuum leak? ;-)

BTW, the only reason the exhaust manifold has anything to do with it is that it and the intake manifold are one piece on this engine. The intake ports are what you need to seal.



Let’s get it started and running first.
 
Alright......Larry......you told me so. I checked that exhaust manifold. Every nut on that thing was a little loose. I got a 1/4 to 1/2 a turn extra on each one. Purrs like a kitten now.


Thanks to everyone who helped me on this one. Next time I’ll check here before throwing a bunch of parts at it.
 

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