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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
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Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650

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belairmike

09-04-2018 18:50:15




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I have a Ignitor Electronic Ignition #1244A and a Flame Thrower Coil #40511 for my 55 650 tractor. It has been changed over to 12 volts. It is positive ground. Does the black wire coming from the Ignitor in the distributor attach to the neg. are the pos. terminal on the coil?




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JMOR

09-07-2018 13:32:07




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeIn that case, as russ1 said, red+, blk-, assuming no resistor.



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sotxbill

09-07-2018 11:40:11




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see

In case its not clear,,, You can open the sparkplug gap to 40 with a hv coil.... Sorry, I tend to forget that others may not be following.... as my brain rattles along. Some of the older equipment had even smaller spark plug gaps and again a hv coil and bigger gap made a huge difference in starting and idling.



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sotxbill

09-06-2018 20:10:35




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
As to the higher voltage coils, Yes, but you can open the gap with the higher voltages.. commonly used 40thou as a gap... again on the old carburetor cars, it did make a difference in idle speed all other things being equal.
In the racing world, a common system would produce less spark at higher rpms so exotic is a must..... in the tractor world, just getting the da^n things to start reliably is a challenge. With all the china points out there, an EP for a rookie is probably the best things they can buy. Cant tell you how many tractors come in to the shop and its the always the points or the carb.. Put an "petronics" in and teach them how to turn off the fuel and run the carb dry, and I never see them again. It happy sailing for many many years.... So I have too many happy customers out there to argue differently.

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JMOR

09-06-2018 08:44:39




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
Most of all your words ring true to my ears. However, the Pertronix unit in question here is simply a switch, not a 2018 EI from a major vehicle manufacturer.

So, "A ei unit will correctly keep the voltage to the coil and more importantly the current flow to the coil high, even during cranking," does not apply.

And, "Remember, most ei systems extend dwell or ... to put a different way, they fully charge the coil for each firing cycle" also does not apply to Pertronix 1244A. Just a magnetic switch substitute for mechanical switch..

Perhaps the most valuable among all your words is, " For some of us, popping a cap and running a dollar bill through is a no brainer, for others its rocket science."

As long as we are on the subject:

An ignition scope will show that 45,000 volts is about 3X the breakover voltage necessary to fire a plug, so just seller hype....in advertising, bigger numbers matter.

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sotxbill

09-06-2018 08:11:48




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
Tim, back in the days before computers... we installed a lot of ei/s with dwell extenders with factory coils. The fact of the matter is... the cars started quicker, with less cranking and idled with higher rpms in almost all cases. Did the engine get modified to make more hp???? NO.. Did the engine make it combustion process more complete so it could make its rated hp... YES...
Heathkit in particular had a bypass switch on it that would cut the ei ... IN or OUT of the circuit. And yes.. .by operating the switch, the rpms would increase or decrease a bit.... Problem with the Heathkit units is the multivibrator transistors would not work in cold weather, or at least some of them, so we would have to put the unit in bypass mode till we could order extra transistors and find some that would work correctly below 30 degrees... So again, with no computer, only carburetors, factory coil, the ei units would make it idle faster, and make it crank less to start as could verified and shown... Later we took the toyota ei modules and moved them to carburetor cars. But as no bypass switch, it was harder to prove, as you had to check the idle speed before and after installation, to see the difference.
Your argument is that a "correct unit" will start well. Problem is.... That as the battery ages, there is more and more of a voltage drop while cranking. NO one changes their batteries weekly. A ei unit will correctly keep the voltage to the coil and more importantly the current flow to the coil high, even during cranking, And this is what makes them work and start quicker and idle higher.
After emissions and computers came along, the newer high voltage ignitions, timing management, and excellent fuel control fixed these problems. But as the older systems were subject to starter wear, battery wear, battery cable resistance, wire corrosion, points resistance, plug fouling and performance, a ei system would overcome, or improve these problems. More hp,, NO, but always at max hp obtainable even years down the road. Remember, most ei systems extend dwell or ... to put a different way, they fully charge the coil for each firing cycle. Back in the day, a dual points system with stagger settings on the points was the only other way to accomplish this. The first set of of points was rotated so that it close early after the fire cycle to start charging the coil sooner, the second set would open later and be the fire signal for the coils field to collapse and trigger the correct timing for the fire pulse... ie it extended the dwell.... secondly it lowered the resistance as well.

I really never went to a high voltage coil in those days as we had more problems with valve spring floating as our limit on rpms. yes, we increase valve spring pressure, pulled studs out of head, then pinned the studs and experience higher cam wear.. the etc etc etc... It was all a matter or money... as the final limit...

But for the average guy, an ei can be useful, particularly if he is not a mechanic or have a points file handy with a booster box, everytime he starts his tractor. For some of us, popping a cap and running a dollar bill through is a no brainer, for others its rocket science.

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JMOR

09-05-2018 13:57:03




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeIf we take the man at his word & not doubt him on pos gnd, then Bob gave the correct answer, in that 1244A will not work. Needs 1244AP12 and it will not have a red wire. When all else fails, read the instruction sheet and if that also fails call Pertronix toll free help line.



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belairmike

09-07-2018 13:29:48




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to JMOR, 09-05-2018 13:57:03  

Sorry, It is not a pos. ground. It is a neg. ground.



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russ1

09-05-2018 13:28:25




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
Red positive, black negative



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Ultradog MN

09-05-2018 05:31:52




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
The guys on the N board pi$s their pants when you talk about EI but I didn't know that had transfered over to the Ford board.
Tell us more about your electrical system.
I really doubt it is positive ground if it is 12 volts though anything is possible.
You will like never, ever having to mess with your points again.
EI is money well spent.



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belairmike

09-07-2018 13:40:57




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to Ultradog MN, 09-05-2018 05:31:52  
It is neg., not pos. ground. My mistake, Typed it wrong. Sorry



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Tim PloughNman Daley

09-06-2018 04:18:38




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to Ultradog MN, 09-05-2018 05:31:52  
Nobody peeing here dude. As I say, and the late Dell has said all the time, there's nothing wrong with 12V/NEG GND or even adding EI, but do it for the right reasons, not because you think your non-starting issues are due to your original 6V/POS GND system, which, he doesn't say, but others reading may want answers. EI only eliminates messing with points. You still need to maintain normal preventative maintenance. Often conversions are done and just as often done incorrectly when the true root cause is bad/incorrect wiring jobs. If it ain't starting on 6V what makes you think it will on 12V? Reading the Manuals and instruction sheets and asking questions BEFORE doing any job is important. Many rookies jump in head first and then the trouble begins. Yeah, if I had a N that I wasn't restoring like an early 9N or early 8N, and just used it for everyday work, I'd probably slap 12V job on it with EI. Like Dell also use to say, "...there are about 6 ways to do a correct 12V conversion and a hundred and six incorrect ways. I just have not found a need to switch any over from 6V." Oh, yeah, the 45K volt Firestarter coil is a joke. Their ad says "Increases Horsepower" Really??? Tell us how Mr. Wizard.

Tim D.

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Ultradog MN

09-06-2018 11:44:06




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to Tim PloughNman Daley, 09-06-2018 04:18:38  

Everytime the topic of EI or 12v comes up you can not resist saying something like: "I just have not found a need to switch any over from 6V."

That is all well and good Tim. You do not need a reason to keep it original and you sure dont need to justify it to anybody.
If you say, "Because I want to" that should be the end of it.

But you always imply a guy needs a reason to convert.

"As I say, and the late Dell has said all the time, there's nothing wrong with 12V/NEG GND or even adding EI, but do it for the right reasons, not because you think..."

A guy does not need a reason to convert any more than you need one to stay original. And he sure does not need to justify it to you or anyone else here.
Because I want to is as good a reason for him as the opposite is for you.

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Tim PloughNman Daley

09-05-2018 03:20:06




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
I concur with Tim & Bob. Why? EI/Igniter II is specifically a 12V/NEG GND device. Forget wire colors -they mean nothing as every supplier uses their own color coding. Colors do not conduct electrons. The Flame Thrower Coil, advertised as a 45K volt device - really? Even if it was real not needed. Maybe with a hi-compression V8 engine you might see a minor difference. Do you have an alternator or a generator? Get a correct wiring diagram, get the correct parts, and start over. You will find that your 12V switch-over job will work/run just fine with a 12 V battery, a 12V alternator, a stnd. 12V coil, and all wired correctly.


Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

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TimInd

09-04-2018 20:16:29




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
I agree. I think that you want to run an alternator with the 12v system, which is not going to do it with a positive ground.



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Bob

09-04-2018 19:43:25




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 Re: Ignitor Ignition on 55 Ford 650 in reply to belairmike, 09-04-2018 18:50:15  
If I looked up a "1244A" kit correctly, it is for 12 Volt (-) ground.

Yet, (about your tractor) you state "It has been changed over to 12 volts. It is positive ground."

At this point, the red or black wires are the least of your worries, 'caus no matter how you connect up a negative ground (overpriced and overrated) EI to a (+) ground shystem, you are going to let some $$$ "magic smoke" out, and QUICKLY.

You ponied up the big bucks for the unit, before preceding, call their official "tech support" and get it figured out! You paid the $$$, they owe you some help vs. burning the &^%& thing up!

(909) 547-9058

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