Ford 4610 Charging Issues

rob.h.smith83 · Apr 25, 2018

Hi all,
I've spent the better part of the day researching, looking at pictures to try to find this answer and I just can't find it so I'm hoping someone out there can help.
I'll make a long story short.
I have a 4610 diesel. There is no voltage regulator (should be an external, long story)
So for the past two years I've just been starting the tractor, turning the key off, and charging the battery on occasion.
So i decided I wanted to fix it properly and this is where I'm confused.
I purchased a voltage regulator from TSC it's for an old ferguson, but I assume it should work the same way?
this regulator has 4 lugs on it. "Bat" "L" "F" and one underneath that I've figured out is supposed to be "Gen"
I hook the BAT to my ignition switch, F to the field on the alternator, and GEN to the "reg" on my alternator. Not charging. however, I have found that if i run a jumper wire directly from the POS side of the battery, to the "Field" on the alternator, it will charge to about 13.7DCV. Obviously I can't leave it like that because I don't want to overcharge the battery. But that does prove that the alternator works right? It seems like the voltage regulator is not kicking power over to the "F" lug and telling the alternator to start charging.
If anyone out there can help me figure this out I'd really appreciate it. Thanks for your time.

rvirgil_KS · Apr 25, 2018

BAT L F GEN regulator is for a generator not an alternator. Won't work with your alternator.

If it were mine I would get an alternator with internal regulator. Delco 10SI from early 80's GM vehicle if it will physically fit, or a smaller Hitachi from a 79- early 80's Datsun/Nissan.

rob.h.smith83 · Apr 25, 2018

(quoted from post at 18:05:00 04/25/18) BAT L F GEN regulator is for a generator not an alternator. Won't work with your alternator.

If it were mine I would get an alternator with internal regulator. Delco 10SI from early 80's GM vehicle if it will physically fit, or a smaller Hitachi from a 79- early 80's Datsun/Nissan.

I didn't realize that. I was thinking an external voltage regulator was an external voltage regulator. Don't they essentially do the same thing?

Bern · Apr 25, 2018

Yes, they do essentially the same thing, which is to control the strength of the field which in turn regulates how much current it puts out.
The main difference (and hang up) is with how a generator and alternator function internally, which require a difference in the details of
the voltage sensing and regulation. Also, each alternator pretty much has a regulator tailored to suit just that particular style.

Bottom line is, if your tractor has the original Motorola alternator on it, and you wish to retain that unit, you'll need a regulator for a
Motorola alternator.

sotxbill · Apr 25, 2018

thinking aloud here, but no.. A generator voltage reg will have a current limiter, that limits the current so the generator does not melt the commuter. And the contacts are only designed for around 22 amps.. And the field voltage/current draw required, is very different than on an alternator. So if it worked at all, it would be short lived.

Destroked 450 · Apr 25, 2018

Your tractor should have a voltage regulator mounted to the bracket that supports the dash panel behind the battery, if it still has the Motorola alternator.
It also has a battery temp sensor in the bottom of the battery box, if this sensor goes bad the alternator will not charge.

rob.h.smith83 · Apr 25, 2018

I appreciate the input I didn?t realize it would make a difference. I do
have the original Motorola alternator and I?ve looked at the internal
regulated SI10s but people are saying they need to be modified to
make them mount into my tractor so thats what I was trying to avoid.
Let me ask this then. If I buy an actual voltage regulator for this
alternator, there?s supposed to be a 4 prong square plug that it plugs
into, but my wires are not the original colors anymore, and there?s no
plug on the harness. Does anyone know basically how to wire in one
basically from scratch? Also, when testing my alternator it?s supposed
to put out AC voltage? How do I test that and what ACV should a
good alternator put out?

Bern · Apr 25, 2018

Alternators put out DC voltage, not AC. You can't charge a battery with AC. Once you get your regulator wired up, look for about 14 volts DC at the battery. If you see that, all is well.

Bern · Apr 25, 2018

Motorola systems did not use the battery temp sensors - Lucas systems did.

Sean in PA · Apr 26, 2018

Parts drawings show two different part numbers for the VR for a 4610:

D7NN10316B - for tractors made prior to September 1, 1986

E4NN10316BA - for tractors made on or after September 1 1986

I'm not sure what the difference is, but they do both appear to still be available . Messicks site claims to have two of the earlier ones in stock for $93.28 each, and one of the later ones in stock for $83.03.

Bern · Apr 26, 2018

The only difference is the 4-pin connector.

Destroked 450 · Apr 26, 2018

(quoted from post at 23:17:22 04/25/18) Motorola systems did not use the battery temp sensors - Lucas systems did.

When did they switch from the Motorola alternator to a Lucas?
MIL's 5600 has a Motorola with no battery sensor.
My 6610 has the battery sensor, not sure what brand the alternator is.

Keith Williams · Apr 26, 2018

All,
How hard is it to mount a 10SI on these tractors?
I replaced mine on a 7200 years ago. Basically just had to drill the bottom pivot hole bigger and add a couple washers to line it up.
I could of used a better top bracket. Wiring was no big deal. Dash light to one spade 2nd to bat stud and a big wire to battery.
The 10SI is a whole lot cheaper than that Alt and you eliminate the regulator!

Just asking. The OP didn't ask but are we doing him justice if we let him spend good money on a bad solution?

Keith

rob.h.smith83 · Apr 26, 2018

Keith,
Thanks for your reply.
Actually I just left auto zone and ordered that 10SI alternator. Will be in tomorrow. It was 78 bucks opposed to over 100 for a new alternator plus the regulator. The picture looks like the mounting will be very close.
Do you have any suggestions on how to wire the thing?
Again. Thank you for responding.

Keith Williams · Apr 26, 2018

You said it was a long story, so I am guessing that the wiring is all buggered up.

Someone will help you more than I can, only was like 30 or so years since I did mine.

Biggest thing is to find the wire that goes to the cluster light that indicates charging. Turn on the key and pull the wires until that light goes out.
You connect that wire to the sense wire on the 10SI. I don't remember which one that is (help).
I would also buy the plug that goes into the socket of the 10SI you buy, makes the wiring easier.

Instead of drilling the case of the 10SI bigger, I should have used a smaller bolt or piece of all thread for the bottom pivot.

I hope others will help soon.
Keith

rob.h.smith83 · Apr 26, 2018

Keith. Thanks again and basically what happened was I bought the tractor and the charging system worked right. Couple years ago it stopped charging, I suspected the regulator and I took it off to find a new one, and lost it ha ha.
So the last two years I just have the wires zip tied up with no original voltage regulator to compare where the wires go.
It?s all easily accessible so I?m not worried about that as much as I am worried I?d hook something up backwards and fry the new one.

JMOR · Apr 26, 2018

This should be about the same, as far as alternator is concerned:

Keith Williams · Apr 26, 2018

Thank you JMOR!
rob.h.smith83,
Without knowing it, you were halfway there when you unplugged the old regulator!
The new 10SI is really not that hard.
Battery connected to the big stud.
Sense wire crossed over to that same big stud.
Third wire hooked to the Warning lamp.
You end up with all the function of the other alternator. PLUS more amps at a cheaper price!
Good Luck!

rob.h.smith83 · Apr 26, 2018

Thanks for all the input everyone.
I?ll pick up my new alternator tomorrow and let you guys know how it
goes. Thanks!!

rob.h.smith83 · Apr 28, 2018

Hey all,
looks like it was a success! I got new alternator and put it in, jumped the #2 pin to the main "BAT" connection and now we're charging around 13.7 when I rev up the
engine.
I wasn't able to figure out the warning light yet though so I'll work on that tomorrow.
The pulley size on the new alternator was quite a bit smaller and unfortunately the bracket it's long enough to tighten the belt. So what I did was took the pulled off my
old alternator, had to hone out the hole ever so slightly, and put that onto my new alternator. Again, looks like I'm good to go. I wanna thank everyone for the input.
I guess the only question I have is, just for testing purposes, I unplugged the #2 pin from the top of the alternator just to see if the voltage drops and it doesn't..so
it almost seems like it's charging properly, even without the internal regulator being excited. Anyone have any ideas if that's going to be a problem or not?

JMOR · Apr 29, 2018

Sounds like you bought a 1-wire alternator that netiher needs the excite terminal #1 or the sense #2 connected to function. All done internally.

rob.h.smith83 · Apr 29, 2018

So what would be the point of the harness at all then?

Keith Williams · Apr 30, 2018

To give you the charging idiot light on the dash.
That is up to you if you want it.

rob.h.smith83 · Apr 30, 2018

I guess I don't care all that much about the idiot light but maybe when I have time I'll take a look at it.
Thanks again for all your help I really appreciate all the input.

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