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8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford

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mcompton1973

09-21-2017 18:47:30




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I live between Tulsa and Oklahoma City.

We have 40 acres right now. 30 are in horse pasture.

My wife has horses and a 120x200 riding arena.

What I am looking for is a tractor that she can brushhog our 30 acres once or twice a year (our land is long and narrow, so only 660ft wide) and something that she can drag around her arena to keep it smooth and soft for horses. Once she had a drag she would do this quite often.

I would also like to be able to move round bales...either push them or move with a spike on the 3 point.

She recently sold a horse and has about 1500-1750 to spend.

My first thought was she needs an 8n. Then I am reading about the PTO doesnt stop and can push her through a fence and down a cliff etc...Sooooo.....maybe not. I thought that "Live PTO" fixed that....but now I think I have wrong terminology.

When she uses the arena drag...it would be for only a few minutes at a time...is that hard on a tractor? Not getting fully warm etc?

Can you help me understand what I need?

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paul

09-23-2017 10:10:09




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
I wrote the below on a different web site last week. So I will just copy and paste my own words here.

Specifically, the areana dragging will be fine. Running a brush hod is much more fun with live pto and a tad safer. Lifting round bales you want live hydraulics and a bit heavier tractor - round bales come in different sizes I make 5x6 big ones and nothing you list would lift those; but 4x5 or more modest sizes could work fine.

Paul

-----

Mid 1950s is when most tractor makers started coming out with useful, well featured small farm tractors.

It's a bit of a challenge to use a tractor without live hydraulics and a real 3pt. If you know what you are doing, used to the old iron, a person can get along, but if you want to buy the fun stuff as you go along and just use the tractor, not cobble along, it's really tough to not have live hydraulics and a real 3pt.

Conversion or add-on 3pt hitches often do not have exactly the right geometry, and so don't act quite right with some implements - especially post hole diggers, but lots of others as well. Sometimes the pto doesn't line up right with the add-on 3pt so it's hard to use pto 3pt stuff. Now, an add-on 3pt is sure a step up over not having 3pt at all, but if it didn't come from the factory that way, it just might not line up well with everything you have to be careful of what fits and what doesn't is all.

Live hydraulics is difficult to explain, but every time you push the clutch in, your hydraulics stop working.... this is a major pain to use, any time you are using a loader or three point item if you push in the clutch they stop working. And that is usually -exactly- the time you want to be adjusting those things, so it is a terrible inconvienience. Just trust us, live hydraulics is pretty important to enjoying using your tools.......

After that, more gears is really handy, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, or more is great, 4 speed is ok but you will notice it's limited, 3 speed is very limiting of the old machines. Typically 1st gear is terribly slow, and high gear is terribly fast, it's the ones in between you want to use, and so the more in between you have the more useful. (A very slow 1st gear is needed for using a tiller, that is one of the times you want a super slow low gear - again the more gears you have, typically the slower that 1st gear is.....)

Live pto is very much nice! You can get by without, but it is something you notice, it makes a difference on many operations. Snow blowing is very difficult without live pto, other jobs are much nicer with live pto. (Independent pto is even nicer, but that is a smaller step up - live pto it 'good enough' for nearly anything.) if you don't get live pto, become familiar with an 'ORC' or over running clutch, an add on to allow you to stop moving forward when pushing in the clutch - without the orc many spinning implements will be a flywheel and keep your tractor pushing forward for many many feet......

If you get a small tractor for around the homestead, the most useful thing you can get with it is a loader. It becomes a powered wheelbarrow, hoist, shovel, etc. I don't see the point of getting a small tractor on a small farmette without a loader. It is just that darn useful for everything every day. By far it adds the most production to the machine. By far. And a loader really sucks without live hydraulics, so that goes back to the features above..... why bother spending on the tractor if you don't get the most useful thing ever for it.....

I wouldn't be scared of a loader tractor without power steering, but power steering is nice to have with a loader. You can get by without fine, but if your wife wants to get in on the fun of driving tractor, it is a feature that makes it better. Can get by without fine, just a little more planning and arm strength is used.

4 wheel drive is a modern thought on the newer little import tractors with loaders. You kinda do really need 4wd on those little light weight loader tractors. On an older USA made farm tractor, it isn't needed. If you put some weight on the rear end of those older heavier USA made tractors, they have plenty of traction the way they are built. They have longer wheelbase, and balance out better so 2wd works fine with a loader on them. The newer compact tractors tho, with a loader you really want 4wd on those.

Just my random thoughts on novice tractor purchases, doesn't mean the 'bad' options don't work for a person, but depends on how you want to use them.

Paul

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ptfarmer

09-23-2017 08:44:10




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
Spend some time to look around for a tractor, you can run across a deal if you have patience to wait for it. For me it would either be a Ford 2000, 3000, or a Massey Ferguson 35, 135, or 150.
My MF 135 diesel the day I got it, it was ready to work, and only cost $1500 (had to wait for the deal).

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But after a few little changes.
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Also my $1400 1971 Ford 4500 TLB going back together with a rebuilt engine (for the Ford fans).
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sunbeam

09-23-2017 07:06:38




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
You might keep a watch on Brinkly auctions in Idabel. You might look at 65 masseys they often sell for less than a 35



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Sean in PA

09-23-2017 05:31:30




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
That propane powered 4000 has the strength to do what you need. The person selling it doesn't know much about it though. It says "8 speed 2 reverse", and when I read that I thought it meant that it probably had a 4 speed and a Sherman combo auxiliary transmission and he didn't know about the "normal" range on the Sherman, but when I looked at the pictures they show that it has the Select-O-Speed (S-O-S) transmission which actually has 10 forward and 2 reverse gears.

To refill the propane tank you either call a propane company to come to you with a tank truck and fill it on your property, just like they do for people who have the big tanks in their yard powering their stoves and other things in their house, or you remove the tank from the tractor and take it to them like most folks do with the slightly smaller tanks that are used on most outdoor gas grills. The tank is large enough to be a pain to remove and reinstall over and over but small enough to be doable, and also small enough to make it almost not worth it to the propane company to make the delivery. If you or one of your neighbors has a large propane tank that gets refilled on a regular basis then you might be able to negotiate delivery at the same time so that they don't charge as much of a delivery fee. Or you could rig up a different frame and use the smaller 20 lb. tanks that the gas grills use, which makes it much easier to remove and re-install them, and you could keep a few full ones on hand so it's never without fuel. Another option would be to convert it to gasoline, as it's the same basic engine except for the fuel delivery system.

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Ultradog MN

09-23-2017 02:58:16




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
I don't think you need live PTO. Yes it's nice but non live does just fine too.

Here are a few Fords to consider in your area.

https://tulsa.craigslist.org/grd/d/ford-
4000-with-brush-hog/6298436777.html

https://tulsa.craigslist.org/grd/d/ford-
tractor-and-brushog/6273116723.html

https://tulsa.craigslist.org/grd/d/860-ford-
tractor/6283707070.html

https://tulsa.craigslist.org/grd/d/ford-
3000-tractor-motor/6279023062.html

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ptfarmer

09-22-2017 23:57:18




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
The DB780 doesn't have power steering. Has a diesel, availability of parts?

The DB990 live pto, and hydrostatic steering was optional, availability of parts?

The Farmall 350 no 3 point lift

The MF35 (a Ferguson TO35) could have live pto, no power steering, has good tires, has 3 point, and parts are easy to find (oem, and aftermarket).

Without knowing about getting parts for DB tractors, the Ferguson would be my choice. It's the easiest one to fix, plus the same basic design has been used on the newer MF35, 135, and 230 - 245 series. It shouldn't have a problem picking up round bales, but may need weights on the front if they are really heavy. As long as the front end, and steering box is in good shape its not that hard to turn (unless you put a front end loader on it).

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mcompton1973

09-22-2017 21:19:52




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
I am halfway between Oklahoma City and Tulsa.

I have seen a couple of David Brown Tractors that have the features you are talking about....but what about part availability?

https://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/grd/d/david-brown-780-tractor/6293865711.html
https://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/grd/d/david-brown-selectamatic-990/6300046124.html

Found this 350
https://seks.craigslist.org/grd/d/farmall-350-tractor-1957/6312642865.html

https://fayar.craigslist.org/grd/d/massey-35/6263428775.html

Soooooo many choices....so few in my price range

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mcompton1973

09-22-2017 21:08:38




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
what about something like this?

https://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/grd/d/ford-4000-tractor/6231013834.html

How do you even fuel a propane tractor? and How durable is it compared to gas or diesel?



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Grandpa love

09-22-2017 20:34:24




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
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My wife loves her 640. We just bought a 2nd one. 1200 bucks. Can't beat it. Does everything we want and moves round bales with 3 point spear. 5' bush hog. Box blade. Rock rake. We use em. I got 960. Love it! Cubs are the kids tractors



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Royse

09-22-2017 20:16:05




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
There are too many brands/models to compare on here realistically.

Some hundred series Fords would fit the bill.

And if you're not opposed to a narrow front end tractor,

power steering would not really be an issue either.

Unfortunately you're only going to get a narrow front end on
a row crop tractor, which are not as common in a lot places.

Many folks are afraid of narrow front tractors. Mainly because
they've heard horror stories or they have a misconception of them.

My family has ran them all my life and the only tractor any of us
has ever tipped over was a wide front end tractor. So to me, the

stories of them tipping over easily are hogwash.

I would concede they're not the best for loader work.

I own mostly utility versions now, because they are lower and fit

more easily into a garage or shop door to be worked on.

What is your general location? It might be easier to know what's

available in your area. It's hard to find a Cockshutt around here.

Just an example. Not that they would be high on your wish list.

Some of mine here.

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mcompton1973

09-22-2017 19:50:52




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
OK. So, I think the reality is I just need to find something else. My wife is 115lbs soaking wet...so I think Power steering is going to be a must...lol.

Realistically, starting from scratch. will the Hundred series fords work, or do I need to look at like the 3000?
What other brands and models would truly fit the bill?



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pinball

09-22-2017 15:43:30




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
You just need a small harrah for dragging your arena. they make what they call an overriding clutch for tractors with out live power. when you push the clutch in the brush hog blade will keep turning but the overriding clutch will take it away form turning the pto. not sure the 8n will handle big round bales. if you have square or round bales they make a 3 pt carryall that you can load your bales on then transfer them to where you need them. around here your 1750 will buy you a decent 8n. other parts of the country wont. personally I would look for a little larger tractor like a ford 6 or 8 hundred series with a five speed transmission. go on craigslist in the Kansas city area. look at a tractor then search it on the net. don't get in a hurry cause once you buy it is yours. don't know how much mechanical ability you have but tractors can be expensive if you have to have some one work on them. the 8n is a good tractor because parts are readily available mostly at a decent price. most likely any 8n you but will already have an overriding clutch on it. good luck on what ever you purchase. norm in missori

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showcrop

09-22-2017 05:44:26




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
There is a lot of good information here about all of these tractors. Both the ones that are too small or inadequately equipped to do the job, and those that are up to the job but are out of your price range. I suggest that you find a rough larger/newer in order to get the money gone, then face the fact that until you get it in order it will work for you just part time, which appears to be what your need is anyway. Then as time and budget allow you can improve its reliability.

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Tim Ploughnman Daley

09-22-2017 03:43:30




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
Lotsa good advice/information here. Royse's' long post below sum sit up best. The LIVE PTO was never a feature on any of the models you listed. As he stated, you buy an ORC for use with mowers to help the forward motion and prevent running into fences, walls, trees, and ditches. On what your budget suggests, an 8N might be the way to. the NAA/Jubilee and up and the Fergusons used an OHV engine, a better workhorse. Ferguson parts are sometimes more expensive whereas 8N parts are readily available and modestly priced. I have a friend who, along with his late wife, operated a horse rescue farm similar to yours and did all those chores with a 1940 9N. You may get lucky and find an NAA or 600 in that price range, but there are many, many things that need to be looked at before buying, especially if you are new to the Ford tractor world.


Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

*9N653I* & *8NI55I3*
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pomester

09-21-2017 23:41:20




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
"...has about 1500-1750 to spend."

All else being equal, the NAA model is clearly the superior unit among the ones you listed. As has been pointed out, none of the models are really appropriate for the mowing you want to do since they do not have live PTO.
At this price point you are evaluating available units on the basis of condition. These tractors are over 60 years old and so often they have been pushed beyond reasonable limits - hitches with broken bolts/brackets, 3-point mechanisms dangerously worn and/or leaky, engines worn beyond superficial repair, worn out tires/rusted rims, worn out steering mechanisms and on. Conditioning a unit for safe operation could easily cost more than the purchase price . And you indicate that you need to move fast, before the money is spent on something else. Not a desirable situation when trying to find value at the low end of the price scale.
Look over available units with an eye to condition/completeness (no missing parts) and pick the one in sound mechanical condition with good tires, bring it home and do a thorough service - fluids, filters, lubrication - evaluate and fix anything associated with safe operation (a couple months ago I had a drawbar break where a torch had been used to punch a hole, which left a mower setting on the ground behind me with the PTO shaft flopping around - take nothing for granted on these old machines) - purchase an overriding clutch for the PTO if it doesn't have one - clean it up and keep an eye on Craigslist and other sources and trade up to live PTO as soon as you can.

And using the arena drag for a few minutes at a time is not a big deal and won't hurt the machine -

Lots of good advice in this thread and not much to disagree with - good luck -
David

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wellmax99

09-21-2017 22:51:32




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
what you are going to want is live pto and I do not believe either of these have it.
you need a later tractor,

3000, 3600 ford or 135, 235 Ferguson
would be a better fit and you would have live pto,
its worth what you have to pay to get it,



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Royse

09-21-2017 22:02:48




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
"NAA/Jubilee are sought after because of limited production so you can buy a 600 for same money"

The NAA/Jubilee were built for two years. 1953/54 model years with 128,965 produced.

The 600's were built for three. 1955/57 model years with 116,368 produced.

Based solely on serial numbers, so room for error, but I don't
see much difference for the "limited production" argument.

The rear end and hydraulics were better on the 600 and up.

Engine and transmission on a 640 and NAA were basically the
same, though not interchangeable because of the hydraulic lines.

Improvements were made with time, so in general newer is better.

Don't forget the x01 series also. 641 is very similar to NAA/640.

If I were going to operate it inside a building, I would lean away from diesel.

I might even consider a propane version at that point.

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da.bees

09-21-2017 21:32:26




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
The N and TO are not up to the task and NAA is just bearly. NAA/Jubilee are sought after because of limited production so you can buy a 600 for same money and have a better tractor. On the Ford side, 800,900,3000 or 4000 would be ideal for what you need to do. On the MF side,MF35-135-65-165 will do the job. Diesel is a bonus but absolutely certain the engine doesn't need repair if buying diesel,parts and labor is much higher than gasoline engines. You should have your wife drive a tractor without power steering before buying one without power steering,they can be tough to handle.

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Royse

09-21-2017 21:03:34




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
Ok, so lets compare the three models you listed.

None have live PTO. That pushing the tractor with a brush hog

deal applies to all of them. It can be stopped with a $50 ORC.

That's an Over Riding Clutch which acts like a ratchet.

When the tractor powers the brush hog, it turns. When the
mower tries to drive the tractor, it ratchets. Example

They can be purchased to fit different PTO shaft sizes too, so
that is something you will want to pay attention to before ordering.

They do not provide "Live PTO", that's another topic. :)

The 8N is a flat head Ford engine with proven longevity and simplicity.

There's nothing wrong with them at all. If you need to do the
valves on one, they are in the block, not the head, so you may

have to take the whole block into the machine shop if you can't

fix it yourself or don't have a travelling machinist. I still have one.

Keep in mind there were early and late 8N models.

The earlier ones had a front mount distributor similar to the
flat head Ford V8's. Some people get confused by them and
find them hard to work on. They're not to me, but they are different.

The later model 8N's had a side mount distributor and a round

can coil. Very much like every car/truck/van in 60's.

They are better understood by many local mechanics.

Both models about 23~25 HP and both models added position

control to the hydraulics that the original Ferguson system used

on the Ford 9N/2N did not have. So, make sure when someone

is selling you an "8N" that it's actually and 8N, not a 9N/2N.

I own two Fergies, but I'm not as familiar with them as I am
the Fords. However, they have proved their mettle too.
Valve in head design, tilt up hood, gas tank not attached to
said hood like it is on the N's.
Parts are not as readily available and are more expensive.

Some of the engines had a tendency to crack the block leaking

antifreeze into the oil, which, if not caught in time, detroyed

the engine. Not an issue normally if you're taking care of your

tractor, but definitely something to look for when buying.

Here again, models often get confused. Is it a TO20/TO30/TE20?

Be sure of what you are buying. The TO30 had a Continental

gas engine and was rated at about 28 HP. (numbers rounded)

Still the Ferguson system, so no position control.

The NAA/Jubilee model Fords were a valve in head design also.

Called a "Red Tiger" engine by Ford enthusiasts.

This was much the same type of engine that was in the Fergy,

but parts are far cheaper and easier to find in my experience.

Tractor was rated at about 30 HP, so not much difference there.

The big difference with this tractor is live hydraulics.

On any of the other options, the clutch has to be engaged for
the hydraulic pump to run and the 3 PT hitch to work.

If you want to set still and raise the lift, you have to put the
transmission in neutral, release the clutch, move the lift, then

depress the clutch and put it back in gear to move instead of
simply raising the lever while the clutch was depressed

And if you're lucky, the lift stays up while you put it back in gear.

Travelling down the road with a mower may require a blocking

system or that the PTO shaft be disconnected so that the PTO
can be left running to hold the 3 PT hitch up for the drive.

The NAA/Jubilee and up pump works any time the engine is running.

Issues with this tractor were that the rear end was not as

robust as it should have been and the external hydraulic lines

could be damaged. These were both addressed on the 600 and
up model Fords.
The Ferguson TO35 Deluxe also has these features and could

have had power steering. Which your wife might also appreciate.

The older I get, the more I appreciate my tractors that have it! :)

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mcompton1973

09-21-2017 19:52:43




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
Well, right now I move the round bales by getting behind them and rolling them into the dry lot....so worst case I can push it in with the tractor. haha.



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fordfarmer

09-22-2017 09:53:06




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 19:52:43  
Those must be fairly small... maybe 4x4's? A Jubilee or similar could -probably- handle them on the 3-point. Or, like you said, push them. Now if they were heavy, dense 4x6's, 1500# or so, there's just now way a tractor that size could lift them on the 3-
point. My 4600 does, but needs weights on the front.



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sunbeam

09-21-2017 19:35:48




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
No live PTO on eather tractor and forget big round bales.



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mcompton1973

09-21-2017 19:15:33




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/affo in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
Well...there is also a Zetor I can get in the same price range...but so worried about finding parts etc.

Basically the 1500-1700 is going to get spent. If I dont find her a little tractor, shes gonna end up with another horse....which we most certainly dont need. lol



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Ultradog MN

09-21-2017 19:07:12




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 Re: 8n NAA or TO30? Help me understand what I need/afford in reply to mcompton1973, 09-21-2017 18:47:30  
You definitely want to skip the 8N and TO30. They're good little machines but the do lack modern features. The NAA is a better tractor than either of those.
Better yet, look for a 600, 801 or even better, a 3000.
But $1700 aint going to get you any of those. Plan on spending double that.
It's one of those pay me now or pay me later deals. $1700 will get you a wore out old no features thing. $3K will get a much better machine. I follow Craigslist ads all over the country and your area has some of the best deals for the $ I see.
Make do without, save up, max out your visa card, sell your first born or whatever but hold out for a better tractor.

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Today's Featured Article - Antique Tractor Wiring Basics - by Curtis von Fange. One of the most neglected parts of old tractors is the wiring. After sitting in the elements for half a century or more much equipment wiring has deteriorated to sparsely covered strands of copper or other metal. Plastic insulation has cracked, mice have eaten through the older clothed style coverings and the exposed wires have reacted to winter moisture and salts by turning blue and powdery. Terminal ends have corroded, rusted or just plain evaporated away. Aged wires not only keep an engin ... [Read Article]

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