Welcome! Please use the navigational links on your left to explore our website.

Company Logo Shop Now
   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver
 
Marketplace
Classified Ads
Photo Ads
Tractor Parts
Salvage

Community
Discussion Forums
Project Journals
Your Stories
Show & Pull Guide
Events Calendar
Hauling Schedule

Galleries
Tractor Photos
Implement Photos
Vintage Photos
Help Identify
Parts & Pieces
Stuck & Troubled
Vintage Ads
Community Album
Photo Ad Archives

Research & Info
Articles
Tractor Registry
Tip of the Day
Safety Cartoons
Tractor Values
Serial Numbers
Tune-Up Guide
Paint Codes
List Prices
Production Nbrs
Tune-Up Specs
Torque Values
3-Point Specs
Glossary

Miscellaneous
Tractor Games
Just For Kids
Virtual Show
Museum Guide
Memorial Page
Feedback Form

Yesterday's Tractors Facebook Page

Related Sites
Tractor Shed
Ford 8N/9N Club
Kountry Life
  
Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
:

3 Terminal 12v Solenoid

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author  [Modern View]
Colin King

04-06-2017 17:32:18




Report to Moderator

I believe I have a faulty starter solenoid. This is a 3-terminal 12v solenoid on a 961D. The old solenoid produced no "click" and I could jumper across and spin the starter.

I've purchased a NAPA p/n ECH ST82 3-terminal 12v solenoid and installed it.

But the new solenoid has the same problem. I have:
-flipped the solenoid over to reverse the BAT and STARTER terminals
-jumpered the mounting base to ground in case I had faulty ground
-jumpered the S terminal to a known working ground in case the safety neutral switch had malfunctioned
-I am to jumper across the terminals to spin the starter just fine. The starter motor is good.

I get no results or even clicking from the solenoid after doing any of these.

What am I missing?

Thanks!
Colin

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Royse

04-10-2017 19:08:47




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-06-2017 17:32:18  
That sounds like the best of both worlds to me Colin.

In my mind that's why Ford switched to that setup.

Simply safer than the neutral safety switch alone.

I have Farmalls, Deeres, Cases, Allis Chalmers and others.

None of mine but the Fords and Furgusons even had a neutral
safety switch in that era. They were ahead of the curve on that one.

The TO-20 shifter has to be moved to the "S" gear position and
that turns the starter over. Neat setup once you get used to it I guess.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Colin King

04-10-2017 18:54:44




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-06-2017 17:32:18  
This morning I was able to install the four terminal relay I mentioned in an earlier post. I also wired the hot wire through the key switch to the "I" terminal, adding an extra level of safety and security with both the key switch and neutral safety switch fully functional.

Thank you all for your help! I had started trouble shooting the 3-terminal relay last November when a sudden blizzard closed my farm shop (the field) for the season. So this problem has been dogging me since then. With thw arrival of warmer weather, I've been able to work on it again. I'm happy to put the problem to rest. And once I get the new fuel tank on, I'll be looking forward to putting this tractor back to work.

Colin, MN

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Royse

04-07-2017 19:54:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-06-2017 17:32:18  
There are many ways to wire them Colin.

Was your tractor wired, running and working with a 3 wire?

If it was, I would simply replace it with the same type.

Even though I believe the original would have been the four

wire type wired as has been described by you and by others.

The only functional difference is whether or not the starter
will roll over with the key turned off like it will on your 8N.

On the four wire the key has to be on for it to roll over.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Colin King

04-08-2017 18:51:13




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Royse, 04-07-2017 19:54:21  
Hi Royse, Yes it worked fine with the three terminal relay. The problem seems to be finding a three terminal solenoid to replace the non-working one. The 3-terminal seems to run about twice that of the 4-terminal, putting them close to the $40 range. Currently, the key only turns on the charging system and sends power to the solenoid that powers the pre-heaters.

I could run hot direct from the battery to a new 4-terminal relay which would essentially leave the set-up as is (though with the addition of an extra wire). Push the safety neutral switch and the circuit is complete, starter motor turns over as it did with the 3-wire. No need for the key switch to start the engine.

Or wire it through the key switch and thereby add an extra level of safety & security. Heavily leaning towards this last option.

The relay my parts guy gave me is a NAPA ST404SB. Looks like I won't be doing much wrenching Monday as there is snow in the forecast. We'll see how it works.

Colin

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Colin King

04-07-2017 18:47:55




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-06-2017 17:32:18  
Thank you all for your help! I didn't have a chance to work on it today as we had maple sap to evaporate, but I hope to get back to it Monday if it doesn't rain in my shop.

It seems to me that the simplest solution would be to convert this to a 4 terminal relay and run the continuous hot wire through the ignition switch to the I terminal and use the safety neutral as ground off the S terminal.

Colin

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Texasmark1

04-08-2017 05:58:37




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-07-2017 18:47:55  
I guarantee you one thing. You DO want a safety switch controlling your solenoid. That can't be over stated. Just takes ONE case of you being in a hurry and thinking "just this once" or by accident with your mind on something else and you will have that tractor all over you. It has happened around here to guys that have been farming longer than my 38 years.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Colin King

04-08-2017 18:40:00




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Texasmark1, 04-08-2017 05:58:37  
Yes, and the current setup did not bypass the safety neutral switch.

Colin



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
royse

04-08-2017 19:01:42




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-08-2017 18:40:00  
"Yes, and the current setup did not bypass the safety neutral switch."

No need for it to do so. The x00 tractors used a 3 wire solenoid with the NS switch.
Only functional difference was they would roll the engine over with the key off as long as the shifter was in neutral.

Of course, most of my experience is with gas tractors.
They would not start without power to the ignition.
Speaking strictly of Fords without magneto ignition.

In the case of a diesel, if it has fuel and will roll, it
will start. However I don't see much difference 3 wire or 4 wire there unless the youngster can turn the fuel on.
In that case, having the key in your pocket with a 4 wire setup may be a huge difference.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Colin King

04-09-2017 05:10:36




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to royse, 04-08-2017 19:01:42  
Good morning Royse,

I may have been misreading Texasmark1. I am under the impression he thought I was planning on bypassing the safety neutral switch or that the 3-terminal set-up that I described initially in my first post had already done so. What I was describing in my first post was how I found the relay circuit with a functional SN switch. That may not have been entirely clear, but I did indicate that I was testing for a bad SN switch. I believe my original post describes the OE wiring set-up as far as I can tell from the limited wiring diagrams I have been able to find on the diesel ignition system in the Ford shop manual. And yes, if a child can get on the seat the child could turn the fuel on and start the tractor with the OE set-up. Running through the key would be the safer option.

Colin

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
David G

04-07-2017 19:22:14




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-07-2017 18:47:55  
I would agree, BUT that is a special for this application, so get the correct one.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
David G

04-07-2017 07:04:53




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-06-2017 17:32:18  
Check for my posts earlier on this same issue.

Solenoid is not a standard, you want one with two little plugs, one little plug gets hot, the other goes to switch and is grounded energizing the solenoid.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob

04-07-2017 08:46:04




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to David G, 04-07-2017 07:04:53  
ONE example...



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Colin King

04-08-2017 19:03:01




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Bob, 04-07-2017 08:46:04  
Thanks, Bob and David. The NAPA parts guy gave me a ST404SB. I'll give that a try and failing that I will try the SS-567.

Colin



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR

04-07-2017 05:39:50




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-06-2017 17:32:18  
An ST-82 needs power applied to small terminal and mounting base grounded in order to activate. Wrong one for that tractor & safety start switch.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Colin King

04-08-2017 18:53:15




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to JMOR, 04-07-2017 05:39:50  
Thanks, JMOR!

Colin



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Texasmark1

04-06-2017 18:33:26




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-06-2017 17:32:18  
The NAPA solenoid sales catalog has schematics for their various relays. BTDT Get the schematic of the OEM solenoid in your tractor and match it. If the 961 had a tranny safety switch, it probably also has a key switch to turn everything on. Energizing the solenoid means grounding the small terminal that isn't connected to the key power on switch supplying 6/12v. That said, you need a 4 terminal solenoid with the energizing coil suspended between 2 small isolated contacts, one going to the source of 6/12v and the other going to the tranny safety switch.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Royse

04-06-2017 18:17:47




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-06-2017 17:32:18  
As SG said, you may have the wrong solenoid.

One quick test would be to make sure its in neutral, ground

the mounting bracket and touch the small terminal to the
battery's ungrounded terminal. Probably positive on your diesel.

If it spins, its the wrong solenoid to work with the neutral safety

switch. Of course, its safer to ohm it out.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy

04-06-2017 17:47:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-06-2017 17:32:18  
First.. Find out what you have. Dont go by the number on the part or the box, either or both could be wrong.

Take a ohm meter. Check from small terminal to case. Next check from small terminal to each of the big posts, one at a time.

When you find the connection from the small terminal that reads low ohms to either case, or one of the big posts, you will have determined where the electromagnet is.

From there, determine if it meets your tractors current wiring scheme. IE.. Power from bat lug, and ground thumb switch on the little terminal, like an 8n, or power to little terminal from a non OEM key start and case being ground.

Post back if you need more help figuring out what that 3 terminal relay is.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Colin King

04-06-2017 19:20:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to soundguy, 04-06-2017 17:47:32  
When you say "case," what are you referring to? The metal mounting plate? Or something else?

Thanks for the help. I'll work through this tomorrow and post back. Electrical has never been my strong suit.

Colin



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
soundguy

04-06-2017 19:49:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to Colin King, 04-06-2017 19:20:49  
Test to the base.

Remember, bad could be isolated. Coil could be lil an 8n between small post and one big post, that's why i want you to test all combinations.

Its not unheard of to get incorrect relays with or without correct part number.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Colin King

04-06-2017 20:03:56




Report to Moderator
 Re: 3 Terminal 12v Solenoid in reply to soundguy, 04-06-2017 19:49:17  
Great! Thanks!

Colin



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Today's Featured Article - It's Alright Where It Is! - by Anthony West. I have a tale of a different kind to tell. Whilst rooting in the hedge bottoms this week I had cause to visit Chapel lane Farm, the home of an eccentric gentleman by the name of Austin Kendall. I had heard rumours that an old Case Model C was languishing away in the back of one of the outbuildings there. So off I went in search of what would turn out to be a very rare and unusual tractor. Mr Kendall is an excitable chap to say the least. He is amongst the last of a dying breed of farmer who ... [Read Article]

Latest Ad: Fiat 800E/ AgriPower 8000 Tractor for parts. Engine burned, but didnt get the injection pump or hydraulic pump. Back end of the tractor still ok, sheet metal is still there. Good for parts. [More Ads]

Copyright © 1997-2021 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy