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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
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Choices/preferrances

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jimf in mo

05-16-2016 09:20:45




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Which engine would you prefer. A 172 gas sleeved or non sleeved or does it make any difference. I have a non sleeved 64 4000 and a sleeved 861. Going to rebuild/restore one and the other will be a worker for now. Both run now. Also which tranny would you prefer or be more versatile. a 5 speed with live PTO or a four speed with a Sherman combo (12 speed) I'm not a farmer. Just like playing with the old ford on my 90 ac. playground. Some mowing some logging for firewood. I also have a early 68 5000 restored. A NAA with Sherman tranny and Sherman hoe and a plan NAA. and a JD 350B crawler loader find a ford.

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Larry NCKS

05-16-2016 23:55:32




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
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I had a 429 Ford engine drop a valve in #7. We bored that hole and sleeved it for repair. Worked just fine. That engine happened to be in a 1970 Torino Cobra.



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RodInNS

05-16-2016 21:14:21




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
On a 172 engine I wouldn't worry about it one way or the other. Those were dry sleeves on that engine so the main benefit is that the engine can be rebuilt at home without any machining work. The parent bore engine would need to be bored/sleeved if the bores were worn/damaged. But the probability of you ever needing to rebuild a 172 more than once these days is pretty low.. The biggest worry with a dry sleeve is perhaps the possibility that the sleeve might be poorly fitted and not properly seated.... and get working in the bore. Then you'd have a real problem....
Now if you were talking about wet sleeves.... then I would make definite argument in favor of the parent bore engine. There's no o-rings to leak. Parent bores (in spite of Ford's well known problems) are generally less prone to pitting/cavitation, etc. I'd also argue they're less susceptible to getting baked if they're run low on coolant or otherwise overheated. A parent bore will tolerate a LOT in that department.

In terms of transmission options.... I've seldom seen a need to use 1st gear in the 5 speed let alone need a slower speed. Go for the live PTO. That's a no-brainer to me. The 5 speed will give you a better selection of useful gears....

Rod

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Destroked 450

05-16-2016 20:23:33




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
The second way is how we've always done it, leave a lip in the bottom and press the sleeve in, the head will hold it down. Most times if it has to come out it has to be bored out.



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Al Baker(pumpman)

05-16-2016 20:05:30




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
I will add my two cents about sleeves in a ford non sleeved engine. I bored a 6600 block out just today and did all four. I could have just bored it oversize, but was scared of the age of this engine and pin holes coming out a year or two down the road. There are three different types of sleeve repairs done. One is to bore the block and press in a straight sleeve. Next is a straight sleeve but you bore down and leave about a quarter of an inch lip at the bottom to make sure the sleeve never slips down. The last way is to bore out the hole and cut a counter bore in the top of the block for a flanged sleeve. I did the second style and used a .0025 press fit with green locktight. Not sure how a guy could press them back out someday if there was an engine failure. I did take pictures but not sure how to load them. I will ask my wife to help me. I am challenged in this way. al

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Destroked 450

05-16-2016 14:57:04




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
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Most sleeves in non sleeve engines are there to repair a damaged cylinder and normally will only have one or two sleeves, for what it cost to sleeve every cylinder on a V8 block you could just buy another block. I had sleeves put in some old race engines years ago because the blocks we where using where hard to find and expensive (Ford Boss 302 and Chevy 350 four bolt main blocks). We did sleeve all cylinders in a 427 side oiler that had been over bored to much causing the cylinders to crack, we later added a second set of sleeves to reduce the bore size to use the block in a 428 super stock Mustang.
I overhauled a 256 from a 5000 Ford that someone had put the wrong rings in, two cylinders needed sleeved and the other two needed a .040 over bore so I had them sleeve all four cylinders back in standard.

Around here it cost about $100 a cylinder to sleeve a block so it's not a normal thing to do in a rebuild, but a common repair for a damaged cylinder or hard to find engine.

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jimf in mo

05-16-2016 13:49:28




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
Thanks all. My thought was that a sleeved engine is easier to rebuild and a little lest costly. I like to do as much as I can that way I know it was done right. plenty of machine shop around but its getting harder to find what I consider good ones at a reasonable price. I realized the non sleeved could be bored and sleeved fitted. just curious as to what you all think.



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Tiger Joe

05-16-2016 12:10:01




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
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not trying to argue or anything, but sleeves are pretty common. I have a BBC at the machine shop now, getting a sleeve in one cylinder, and when I questioned putting a sleeve in the machinist said "I do it all the time"



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Destroked 450

05-16-2016 11:49:52




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
The non sleeved block can be bored for a repair sleeve and it can be bored once or twice. That's a lot of rebuilds but I'd also rather have normally sleeved block, although all my 65 and newer tractor's have non sleeve blocks, one has a repair sleeve in number 2 cylinder because of a broken ring.



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sunbeam

05-16-2016 09:59:14




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
The only time I would go for the non live PTO tractor is for a loader tractor the single clutch will stand up better.



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Ultradog MN

05-16-2016 09:37:31




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
The NAA would suffice for hauling logs and firewood. So for a mowing tractor I'd rather have the live PTO 5 speed.
As for the blocks, the sleeved engine will be much cheaper to over haul.
About the only advantage I can think of on the non sleeved engine is the oil filter.



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fordfarmer

05-16-2016 11:51:23




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to Ultradog MN, 05-16-2016 09:37:31  
Yep.... and I'd put a spin-on adapter on the sleeved block if it were mine. .. so there goes thst advantage.



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old

05-16-2016 09:34:57




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
As for live PTO many factors come into play. If you have a loader the Sherman combo 12 speed is very nice since it makes for a very good pusher gear when in low low. I have a 841S and have almost used it like a bull dozier and you can see the side of the tire give with the torque. As for the engine Sleeved hands down because you can rebuild them many many times before the block goes bad but one with out sleeves while yes it can be bored but only so many times before the block is a anchor

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Ultradog MN

05-16-2016 11:23:15




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to old, 05-16-2016 09:34:57  
Rich,
Once it's been sleeved it can be resleeved as often as any other sleeved engine.



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old

05-16-2016 11:28:08




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to Ultradog MN, 05-16-2016 11:23:15  
If you read what I say I said a sleeved engine can be rebuilt many many times as in new sleeves can be installed many times but an engine that does not have sleeves can only be bored out so many times before that block is scrap iron



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fordfarmer

05-16-2016 11:49:34




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to old, 05-16-2016 11:28:08  
What Ultra was saying is that it is common practice to install sleeves when the block is bored... and it can then be rebuilt as needed, just like other sleeved blocks.



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old

05-16-2016 12:01:25




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to fordfarmer, 05-16-2016 11:49:34  
Well I have yet to ever see that done but then again most engines I work on that do not have sleeves are car and truck engines and I have NEVER seen one of them sleeved



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Ultradog MN

05-16-2016 12:27:56




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to old, 05-16-2016 12:01:25  
On the 65 and newer Ford tractors - which weren't sleeved at the factory it is common practice to sleeve them during a rebuild because of known cavitation problems that allowed coolant into the bores.
Many posts here about that. Then they could be resleeved over and over.
Fordfarmer had his 4600 sleeved because of cavitation a few years ago.



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old

05-16-2016 13:40:37




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to Ultradog MN, 05-16-2016 12:27:56  
Okay just not something I have ever seen done to a non sleeve engine but like I said most non-sleeve engine I have worked on are car and truck engines and never heard of sleeving one of them



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pomester

05-16-2016 09:30:47




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 Re: Choices/preferrances in reply to jimf in mo, 05-16-2016 09:20:45  
absolutely the live PTO -
no opinion on the sleeved vs unsleeved and don't know if there is any other differences in the engines - - might be easier to find a shop to install sleeves vs finding a shop that can overbore, but there's a couple of shops around here that could do either -



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