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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
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Throwing parts at goblins

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Billybuck

05-30-2015 14:01:29




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My 660 12v has been running well for several years now. Recently I noticed a miss or slight sputter. It has gotten progressively worse the last few uses. Of note* pulling out choke barely changes anything..hmmm. Pulling each plug wire while running suggested all were firing. Used a separate plug with widened gap and verified spark at each. Points were well worn. Cap and rotor look ok. Disconected fuel line had good flow. Opened petcock under carb; steady stream. Replaced the points (.025). No change. Replaced the plugs just because. They were a bit darker than I prefer but in good shape. No change. Pulled the air breather tube, good suction on hand over carb throat and could have shut it down doing that. Pulled the carb, dismantled, nothing obvious. Float empty. Soaked over night, probed all ports with small wire and jets with torch tip cleaner tool, reassembled, reinstalled; no change. Managed to limp around the fields to spray for corn planting but lacking power and breaking up badly. Tried to check timing but even with hold down ears and bolts removed could not budge the distributor! Even a cold chisel and hammer couldn't move it. Don't know what to do about that. Gave up and picked up a coil on the way home. Beginning to wonder if there's water in the fuel but no sign of any in the sediment bowl. Would really like to free the distributor. What next? I know, buy a new Kubota.

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billybuck

06-01-2015 18:45:39




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Billybuck, 05-30-2015 14:01:29  
Dean gets the gold. New cap & rotor made the difference. The index tab in the old cap was badly worn as is the notch in the dust cap. New cap barely moves and new dust cap is on the way. A little sputter remains but plenty of power. Got a few acres disked before rain. Still should check the valve lash. Many thanks.



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Aaron Ford

05-31-2015 16:09:46




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Billybuck, 05-30-2015 14:01:29  
My choke stop broke and was allowing the choke to close partly in the opposite direction. Boy did that make her run badů

Aaron



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billybuck

05-31-2015 11:15:36




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Billybuck, 05-30-2015 14:01:29  
Update: disconnected air tube from carb and started it up. Did not majically heal overnight:shock. Replaced condenser, no change. Replaced main wire coil to distributor, no change. Replaced small wire C. to D. No change. Replaced coil, no change. Replaced plug wires with new carbon core/stainless wire ones I had for a boat. The box of copper cores I took to make up did not have proper ends. Thought box was new but I had robbed the ends for previous job. No change. Removed wire mesh from air cleaner, cleaned, replaced oil, no affect. Compression check: warm, throttle open 148,140,130,140 dry - 185,155,165,150 wet.
What did make a difference: I noticed the distributor cap is sloppy. If I twist it clockwise it runs much better, though not perfect. Counter clockwise, ran like crap. Plan to get a new cap, rotar, dust cover and seal. If that doesn't do it, guess I'll try to break the distributor free and check/adjust timing. Anything else? I will check the insulator as JMOR suggests and re-enter the carb if the above doesn't fix it. Hopefully Napa will have the cap and components tomorrow.

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Dean

05-31-2015 17:11:16




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to billybuck, 05-31-2015 11:15:36  
Sounds like the distributor cap is not properly installed. It is indexed to the housing and should not "rotate."

It's not ignition timing.

Dean



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billybuck

05-31-2015 19:12:05




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Dean, 05-31-2015 17:11:16  
This one is a unique timing model! We'll see what happens when the new goes on, properly.



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JMOR

05-31-2015 13:30:32




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to billybuck, 05-31-2015 11:15:36  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeIt would be "nice" to have distributor free, but I certainly would not use enough force to damage it in order to have it free, as tractor has been running fine with this "clearly fixed" timing setting for years & will well int the future.



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NoNewParts

05-31-2015 04:55:04




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Billybuck, 05-30-2015 14:01:29  
wires that bite me are always suspect.

leaking wires will find some metal

(usually on the backside to try to fool you)

turning off the lights in your shop helps you find em.

if your tractor is fairly quiet, you can sometimes hear the

telltale 'snap, snap' before you see it.

had one that fell on its face badly. arc was coming out of coil lead..down the tower and over to one of the little terminals.

go figure.

while your timing needs to be checked with a light, that can come later. ran fine for years? distributor couldn't have moved cuz it's stuck?

yes, water in the gas can mimic your symptoms, but usually what you did, draining the carb bowl, will smooth them out for long enough to get to the shop. until the water builds up in the bowl again.

good runners that suddenly go bad, the carb gets another look whether it needs it or not.lol Needles and floats randomly not behaving can have you chasing your tail sometimes.

edit to add, The Kubota is a nice idea. I have a newer one.

but

you still need to fix your 660 cuz you will still need it.

on certain jobs, your old Ford will still do it better.
This post was edited by NoNewParts at 05:09:23 05/31/15.

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dmbinva

05-30-2015 17:26:32




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Billybuck, 05-30-2015 14:01:29  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to see
Adjust the valve lash , just may be the problem



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Dean

05-30-2015 17:10:14




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Billybuck, 05-30-2015 14:01:29  
You do not need to turn the distributor to "check" the timing.

Impossible to accurately disgnose in a chat forum but I suspect ignition.

When were the plug wires last changed? Visually inspect the distributor ends of each and verify that all are properly seated in the cap.

Take a closer look at the cap and rotor in good light. Replace both if any doubt.

I like the Kubota idea.

Dean



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billybuck

05-30-2015 17:37:54




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Dean, 05-30-2015 17:10:14  
Dean- I was hoping to turn the distributor to determine if timing may be an issue and did not have a timing light to check it.
The plug wires are 4+ years old as are cap and rotor. I am always suspicious of caps and rotors as wear is difficult to gauge. This one shows no burn marks or uneven wear but I'll replace them if that fixes my problem. I'll pull each wire at the cap also.
I will mention that after pulling each plug wire to hear a cylinder drop, I layed the back side of a leather gloved hand on the coil wire and got lit up by it. I wasn't shocked, well, I was, but with the voltage generated by the coil I wasn't. Should I have been? Could that wire be arching to the plug wires? It looks fine but like me, looks can be deceiving.

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Dean

05-30-2015 17:44:24




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to billybuck, 05-30-2015 17:37:54  
When the high tension wire(s) are disconnected, the induced voltage in the high tension circuit increases until it can discharge somewhere. Apparently, The coil wire insulation/leather glove was the weak link.

Visually inspect the spark plug and coil wire with the engine running at night. If you see evidence of arching or, more likely, chorona effect (glowing) on any wires, replace all.

I believe you have a HT ignition problem.

Forget about valves unless you have compression issues.

Dean

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billybuck

05-30-2015 18:18:25




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Dean, 05-30-2015 17:44:24  
I never got it disconnected. After getting lit up through a glove on the backside of a finger nail I was over it. If your HT theory is correct, is not the coil a prime suspect? Might a decintigrating coil exhibit these symptoms?
Compression checked out fine when I got it 4 yrs ago. I have no problem checking that again, should the current list of potential solutions fail.



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Dean

05-30-2015 19:47:29




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to billybuck, 05-30-2015 18:18:25  
Very unlikely, though not impossible, that the coil is the culpret.

Inspect the plug wires as advised.

Dean



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showcrop

05-30-2015 15:55:45




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Billybuck, 05-30-2015 14:01:29  
It is sounding to me like burned valves. Pick up a compression tester and check your compression.



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billybuck

05-30-2015 16:42:13




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to showcrop, 05-30-2015 15:55:45  
I have one and can do that



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Ultradog MN

05-30-2015 14:28:29




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Billybuck, 05-30-2015 14:01:29  
My first thought is spark.
Especially if you have good fuel flow, clean carb and the air cleaner isn't plugged - though you did not mention checking that.
Where did you buy your points from and did you replace the condenser?
If they are not Echlin or Blue Streak I would likely toss them even if they are new and do it over.
Another thing I would check is the condition of the wire that goes from the coil to the distributer. I just got done helping a guy with a no start on a 641 because that wire where it goes through the side of the distributer was frayed and shorting out. A dab of silicone on both sides of it fixed it.
Your distributer not turning bothers me.
I would suggest you figure out why so you can put a timing light on it and make sure the advance is working properly.
Lastly, you might also wait till it's dark and then start it and watch to see if your spark isn't leaking off from your spark plug wires somewhere. Check for any rubbed areas or fraying.

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billybuck

05-30-2015 15:09:13




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Ultradog MN, 05-30-2015 14:28:29  
Udog - I disconnected the hose from the air cleaner to eliminate that possibility with no affect. Points are Napa Echlin. I did not replace condenser but picked one up when I got the coil today. I do plan to replace that short coil wire. The plug wires look good. As you know the 600's wear them on the side where they make no contact with metal or belts etc. What could possibly explain why the distributor won't move? No sign of a tack weld. God forbid PO put it in with JB Weld! Hate to take a pipe wrench to it.

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Ultradog MN

05-30-2015 19:13:07




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to billybuck, 05-30-2015 15:09:13  

BB,
Just be certain we are on the same page here I was talking about the small wire that goes from the - side of the coil, through the side of the distributer and connects to the points inside. Not the HT wire that goes from the coil to the center hole of the cap.
You were too right?



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JMOR

05-31-2015 05:19:02




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Ultradog MN, 05-30-2015 19:13:07  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeNot just the wire, but the distributor wall feed thru insulator.



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billybuck

05-31-2015 04:51:13




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to Ultradog MN, 05-30-2015 19:13:07  
Yes, 12 or 14 gauge I'd guess



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Ultradog MN

05-30-2015 15:35:22




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 Re: Throwing parts at goblins in reply to billybuck, 05-30-2015 15:09:13  
If you do have to go after the distributer with a channel locks or pipe wrench use a piece of an old leather belt to keep from marring it up so bad.
I would use some pb blaster on it and let it sit overnight first.



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