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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
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Draining carbs?

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William Fissell

10-28-2014 09:05:59




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Hi, All,

I rebuilt the carb on my 841 and while I was dickering with other stuff, the tractor sat. Then it was very weak and seemed fuel starved. Good flow from the tank and the screens OK.

Took apart the carb. Full of rust and gunk.

I assume that water dissolved in the ethanol-tainted gas is what did it. Since ethanol-free gas is hard to come by around here, I have to figger this out.

Do any of you routinely drain the carb bowl?

thnaks!

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JMOR

11-01-2014 00:00:04




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to Tiger Joe, 10-28-2014 09:05:59  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seethere is always an "exchange".....transmission, gas tank, carb, etc. are all vented.



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George Marsh

10-31-2014 06:39:08




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to William Fissell, 10-28-2014 09:05:59  
I have the opposite theory, just my theory. If you let an engine sit inside an unheated building and do nothing, you will find condensation will get inside and cause the engine to rust up. Boat owners in the winter spray oil in cylinders to prevent condensation.

I believe if you let a gas tank set empty, same problem, condensation will cause tank to rust.

So why drain a carb thinking condensation won't get inside?

I can see a reason to drain 2-cycle carbs, you don't want the gas to evaporate and let the oil to gum up things.

I have never allowed my gas tanks to sit empty in the winter. Keep them full. I have never allowed carbs to sit empty either. I've never shut off the gas to drain carbs either. I've never had carb issues due to rust. I have bought tractors with rusty gas tanks and replaced the tank.

Some of my tractors are used year around and some retire in the winter. I'm a believer in stay-bill. Buy it in 32 oz bottles. This time of the year, I drain the old gas out of my generators, replace it with new and add staybill. Make sure they will run in the winter. The retired tractors/lawnmowers get filled up and staybill.

If I'm not mistaken, ethanol is your friend, it absorbs condensation.

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William Fissell

10-31-2014 09:01:56




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to George Marsh, 10-31-2014 06:39:08  
If I had gas that didn;t have water-loving ethanol in it I'd take your theory, yes.



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JMOR

10-31-2014 06:46:54




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to George Marsh, 10-31-2014 06:39:08  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeGeorge, my reason on the Farmall is probably related to my lack motivation to fix it! If I don't run carb dry, but instead let it evaporate/slowly weep away, then the needle will be stuck closed & it will still have just enough to start & immediately die. So, I run it dry & let needle/float drop, then at next start, turn on gas valve & it starts & runs until I kill it for the day.

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George Marsh

11-02-2014 05:48:58




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to JMOR, 10-31-2014 06:46:54  
Jessie
Both the carbs on my Jubilee and IH C tend to drip gas when shut off. Just enough gas to make the carb look wet. One day, I opened garage, gallons of gas from Jubilee were on the ground. So, I installed gas solenoid valves on both tractors. Under $20 each off ebay. When I turn key on, I can hear a click. That tells me it good to go. I also wired them to the alternator wire that has the idiot light to excite alternator. They work just fine. I never have to remember to turn gas on of off. Carbs still have gas in them. They start right away. I'm getting to old and forgetful. I have to KISS, keep it simple.

I use the Jubilee all year around. The IH about 8 months out of the year mowing. Both are good, strong engines, hard working tractors. Only wish Farmall had a partnership with Ferguson, 3 pt.
George

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George Marsh

10-31-2014 13:57:09




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to JMOR, 10-31-2014 06:46:54  
Jessie, 60 years ago I rode motorcycles. Couldn’t afford new one, just the basket cases that didn't run and most of the motorcycle was in a basket. Well back then there wasn't ethanol. Yet the gas tanks were full of rust. Carbs had water in them. We didn't have ethanol to blame, just mother nature. Where I live in Indiana, condensation is a mayor problem. When the air in a gas tank warms and cools, the tank breaths. During the day when the air warms up, air exits the tank. At night the cold causes the air to contract and sucks in air with moisture. Tank breaths very slowly and like it or not a little moisture collects in an empty tank, inside an engine that isn't used in the winter and yes inside empty carbs. Condensation inside the tank will put water in the gas. Nothing to do with ethanol. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't ethanol used in HEET to absorb the water out of the gas?

I was taught to keep gas tanks full in the winter to prevent gas line freeze ups. I was told, that it's even worse when a car is parked inside a heated garage. Gas tank breaths even more.

If there are those who don't believe that condensation exists, look at what comes out of your muffler when you start a cold engine.

I definitely think the ethanol issue did cause problems when it first came out. Caused my holley carb parts to fall apart. But today, engineers have figured out how to get around that issue.

I have no choice, epa 10% ethanol. I even make my own 20% ethanol for my backhoe in the summer to cool the engine down, lean out the fuel/air mix and prevent dieseling when I turn it off. It works, but there are those who will never change their mind that ethanol has good properties. They will use ethanol as an escape goat.

60 years now, I've never drained a carb, except for 2 storkes, and I never will. I don't have carb issues. I have about 20 engines with carbs too. I don't let gas sit around and get old either. Just drained last years old gas out of 2 generators today. Put new fuel in along with stabil. I HAVE NEVER HAD A CARB RELATED ISSUE USING ETHANOL OR BY NOT DRAINING CARBS. Don't plan to change. Mostlikely I won't change others opinion either.
George

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keith williams

10-31-2014 15:45:48




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to George Marsh, 10-31-2014 13:57:09  
George,
Your statement:
"If there are those who don't believe that condensation exists, look at what comes out of your muffler when you start a cold engine." Doesn't hold water! LOL!!
That water comes from the combustion process, not condensation. When hydrocarbons are burnt they produce carbon dioxide and water.
I do agree that there is condensation, I just believe that your example is not a good one.
IMHO
Keith

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George Marsh

10-31-2014 19:19:55




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to keith williams, 10-31-2014 15:45:48  
third party image

Yes, combustion contains steam. When it cools in muffler, you get condensation, water.

That said, air has moisture, humidity. In the winter, when the humidity comes in contact with any thing below the dew point temp, you get condensation.

Here is a pic of what happens inside a pole barn with a metal roof. This pole barn has 3 horses. In the winter, the inside of the roof becomes an ice cave. When the sun comes out, the frost melts. Look closely you will see the water stains on the perlins. You don't want to be inside when the frost melts or you will smell like a horse.

When the conditions are right in Indiana, the same thing can happen inside a gas tank, a carb, cylinders, an unheated garage. Last winter was the worst with all the snows and temperature swings. I had a real rust issues with bandsaw, drill press, lathe, even vise. This is all caused by condensation.

You may live in a dry climate and not have to deal with the problems we have in Indiana.

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keith williams

10-31-2014 21:38:02




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to George Marsh, 10-31-2014 19:19:55  
George,
Got the same problems. I was just trying to be cute on the water out of the tail pipe thing.

My input into this is most of the systems we deal with on a tractor are closed. For example: the transmission of a tractor, I know that if you cool it off that condensation would form on the inside. My point would be that unless there is an exchange of air, during the next warm/cool cycle, there is no more moisture added to that tranny to be condensed out. I store my gas in closed containers. I know if you store gas in an open container, there wouldn't be any gas left when you came back, so most people are also storing their gas in closed containers. Unless you open that container every day to let more moist air in, there shouldn't be more water introduced into that closed system.
So....
I don't have to drain my Carb to remove water.
I don't have water in the strainer bowl. (by the way that's where the water that would come down from the tank would get caught.)
I never have found water in my tranny or my hydraulics or my differential. That oil is just a little dirty when I change it from the gears wearing.
I am in the same climate as you. (I am traveling from Ohio to Indy tomorrow to visit my son.)
I always scratch my head when people talk about finding gallons of water in their tractors and claiming that it came from "condensation". To me it got there some other way.
Just my view of things.
IMHO
Keith

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George Marsh

11-01-2014 06:01:07




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to keith williams, 10-31-2014 21:38:02  
Keith,
Where do you live in Ohio? I went to Cincinnati Monday to help a friend move back to TH. About 550 mile round trip. I don't want to do that real soon. Let me know if you ever make it to Terra-bull Haute.

Google condensation in gas tank, there are many others who see that a closed system does get water inside.

Perhaps the reason you don't see water in sediment bowl is that ethanol is your friend. It soaks up the condensation.

Perhaps the reason you don't see it in oil, is most oils have a detergent to soak up the moisture. Water in oil causes to turn a white foamy look. The hydraulics on my Jubilee definitely has condensation issues. When I removed the top cover, all my control levers were rust city. One was so rusted, I had difficulty moving the control lever. I really need to someday rebuild them. Anyone have a source for all the control levers parts under lift cover for a Jubilee?

Nice chatting,
george

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keith williams

11-02-2014 06:12:14




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to George Marsh, 11-01-2014 06:01:07  
George,
I live in Lisbon Ohio. Farm is close to there. It's at the other end of the state from you.
I lived in Evansville from 01 to 04, Indy (Avon) 04 to 06. That Evansville to Ohio trip was almost 500 mi one way. Out and back in one weekend was a real load.
I did many Evansville to Indy trips, varied my route. Terra Haute sometimes Washington. They say the new 69 makes that trip much easier.
Sitting in Indy right now visiting.

As far as the Moisture thing goes, my 4000 sits inside a barn with no animals and good ventilation. It's a bank barn so Its on the second story. Wood floor. Never have even a trace of moisture in any of the fluids.
My experience, my situation, others may have totally different luck. I guess that is one of the problems with asking advice on the internet, there are so many variables that could affect the situation/problem that are not known.
I always read your posts. Good to chat too!
Keith Williams

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George Marsh

11-02-2014 16:03:56




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to keith williams, 11-02-2014 06:12:14  
Keith,
I made a mistake, I went to Columbus on Monday not Cincinnati. I came to Terre Haute in the 60's to go to College. Got a degree and wasn't smart enough to leave town. Both of my kids went to college and they had to move to Indy to find jobs.

Ever make it my way, give me a shout.
George



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JMOR

10-31-2014 17:46:11




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to keith williams, 10-31-2014 15:45:48  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeSince it was vapor exiting combustion, it still had to condense in order to be a liquid dripping from tail pipe. :wink:



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JMOR

10-31-2014 14:02:51




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to George Marsh, 10-31-2014 13:57:09  
I try to keep gas tanks topped off in the winter, too.



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NNP

10-30-2014 03:58:31




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to William Fissell, 10-28-2014 09:05:59  
sure

I always let em idle a bit to cooldown.

good time to shut the gas off and do a walkaround til they quit,

looking for any new 'gotchas'.

90% of my tractors have a drain valve on the carb bowl.

You just can't argue with condensation. It gets in everywhere.

Easy to drain if you are in a hurry at shutdown.

(and on some tractors like horizontal JD's, that carb drain valve stays open when parked)

The bowl drain valve is also handy at start-up.

turn gas on, open drain valve a few seconds to flush out any water and red dust rust, close it and start it up.

(and doing this, I know without any doubt that there is fresh gas in the bowl, and the needle isn't stuck before I ever hit the start button)

Really ain't no different than when we humans walk up to the sink for a drink. turn the water on for a few seconds, rinse the glass, get some water. Engines deserve the same.......

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robert major

10-29-2014 21:30:26




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to William Fissell, 10-28-2014 09:05:59  
Hi I run my Fordson with the tap off until it quits, Then undo the drain and leave it open a little. It's surprising what still comes out after the motor stopped. I have had 2 tractors i got for parts have gas left in them, and it then pulls moisture from the air. Up here in Manitoba the water then freezes and crushes the floats, and E27N straight gas floats are hard to replace, many in the wreckers are the same. Regards Robert

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JMOR

10-28-2014 09:12:07




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to William Fissell, 10-28-2014 09:05:59  
Quoting Removed, click Modern View to seeI shut off the gas valve under tank, let engine run until it dies from fuel bowl sucked dry & then turn off key.



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William Fissell

10-28-2014 16:28:31




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 Re: Draining carbs? in reply to JMOR, 10-28-2014 09:12:07  
I used to do that. Don;t knwo why I stopped.



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