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Rebuilt Ford 4000 3 cyl gas won't start.. Timing I think....

D

deerefanatic

Member
Ok.... I'm pulling my hair out on this.... Close to $2k later, this stupid thing wont start. I think my I&T manual is leading me astray. All the tractor will do is pop and backfire, or now at least start, struggle on what sounds like 2 cylinders, and die.

Block & head all checked out. Bored .030 over, full valve job. Crank turned. All new bearings, pistons, rings & gaskets. Brand new zenith replacement carburetor since the holley wanted to pour gas all over the shop floor and was one of the models you can't get a rebuild for, brand new ford clutch, pressure plate, pilot and throwout bearing, new points, condensor, cap and pertronix flamethrower coil. New Autolite 405 plugs gapped to .060 to take advantage of the hi voltage coil.

I&T manual says to set motor at 0 degrees TDC compression. Align rotor with #1 cylinder terminal of cap, then install into drive housing. Rotate base until breaker points just begin to open. Doing this means all the motor will do is pop and sputter. I've tried installing the distributor in all different positions and nothing works well. Right now, it will at least start and struggle on 2 cylinders for a bit and then die... The distributor is installed 2 teeth "advanced" from the way the I&T book says.

Any ideas? I'm about ready to push this thing on a long roll off a tall cliff.... I do mechanics for a living, but there's a reason why if it's a gas I won't let it in the doors of the shop. Unfortunately the ladies like this thing and wouldn't let me sell it to get a nice diesel skid steer, so I was over-ruled! LOL
 
I still say to give each cylinder a dose of oil... I
think your rings just aren't sealing well enough.
Takes a fair amount to fill the bowl...
 
i hate to ask this question,but
is the gas fresh?
i had a similary expierence when i first got my tractor a few years ago,had a tractor mechanic out here working on it ,trying to get to run
he could'nt get er running either,found this website,and a gentleman,i believe called "old"
told me it was my gas, i told the mech,he laughed,said no its not the gas,long story short
i should have sent old some money
i drained all old gas out,blew out the lines,drained carb,new filter, etc.
after it started up,he figured he should add that to his secret book,lol
 
I put enough oil in that when I barred the tractor over, it puked oil out the spark plug holes. LOL> The entire tractor is saturated.. LOL

Yep, checked the firing order multiple times.

Gas is brand new premium gas with no ethanol.
 
(quoted from post at 22:40:59 04/05/12) Ok.... I'm pulling my hair out on this.... Close to $2k later, this stupid thing wont start. I think my I&T manual is leading me astray. All the tractor will do is pop and backfire, or now at least start, struggle on what sounds like 2 cylinders, and die.

Block & head all checked out. Bored .030 over, full valve job. Crank turned. All new bearings, pistons, rings & gaskets. Brand new zenith replacement carburetor since the holley wanted to pour gas all over the shop floor and was one of the models you can't get a rebuild for, brand new ford clutch, pressure plate, pilot and throwout bearing, new points, condensor, cap and pertronix flamethrower coil. New Autolite 405 plugs gapped to .060 to take advantage of the hi voltage coil.

I&T manual says to set motor at 0 degrees TDC compression. Align rotor with #1 cylinder terminal of cap, then install into drive housing. Rotate base until breaker points just begin to open. Doing this means all the motor will do is pop and sputter. I've tried installing the distributor in all different positions and nothing works well. Right now, it will at least start and struggle on 2 cylinders for a bit and then die... The distributor is installed 2 teeth "advanced" from the way the I&T book says.

Any ideas? I'm about ready to push this thing on a long roll off a tall cliff.... I do mechanics for a living, but there's a reason why if it's a gas I won't let it in the doors of the shop. Unfortunately the ladies like this thing and wouldn't let me sell it to get a nice diesel skid steer, so I was over-ruled! LOL
Click to expand...
"Rotate base until breaker points just begin to open" At this step, it is absolutely essential that the distributor base is rotated in the OPPOSITE direction that the rotor turns. Otherwise timing will be very far off (by dwell X2).
 
(quoted from post at 22:40:59 04/05/12) Ok.... I'm pulling my hair out on this.... Close to $2k later, this stupid thing wont start. I think my I&T manual is leading me astray. All the tractor will do is pop and backfire, or now at least start, struggle on what sounds like 2 cylinders, and die.

Block & head all checked out. Bored .030 over, full valve job. Crank turned. All new bearings, pistons, rings & gaskets. Brand new zenith replacement carburetor since the holley wanted to pour gas all over the shop floor and was one of the models you can't get a rebuild for, brand new ford clutch, pressure plate, pilot and throwout bearing, new points, condensor, cap and pertronix flamethrower coil. New Autolite 405 plugs gapped to .060 to take advantage of the hi voltage coil.

I&T manual says to set motor at 0 degrees TDC compression. Align rotor with #1 cylinder terminal of cap, then install into drive housing. Rotate base until breaker points just begin to open. Doing this means all the motor will do is pop and sputter. I've tried installing the distributor in all different positions and nothing works well. Right now, it will at least start and struggle on 2 cylinders for a bit and then die... The distributor is installed 2 teeth "advanced" from the way the I&T book says.

Any ideas? I'm about ready to push this thing on a long roll off a tall cliff.... I do mechanics for a living, but there's a reason why if it's a gas I won't let it in the doors of the shop. Unfortunately the ladies like this thing and wouldn't let me sell it to get a nice diesel skid steer, so I was over-ruled! LOL
Click to expand...
"Rotate base until breaker points just begin to open" At this step, it is absolutely essential that the distributor base is rotated in the OPPOSITE direction that the rotor turns. Otherwise timing will be very far off (by dwell X2).
 
(quoted from post at 09:10:30 04/06/12)
(quoted from post at 22:40:59 04/05/12) Ok.... I'm pulling my hair out on this.... Close to $2k later, this stupid thing wont start. I think my I&T manual is leading me astray. All the tractor will do is pop and backfire, or now at least start, struggle on what sounds like 2 cylinders, and die.

Block & head all checked out. Bored .030 over, full valve job. Crank turned. All new bearings, pistons, rings & gaskets. Brand new zenith replacement carburetor since the holley wanted to pour gas all over the shop floor and was one of the models you can't get a rebuild for, brand new ford clutch, pressure plate, pilot and throwout bearing, new points, condensor, cap and pertronix flamethrower coil. New Autolite 405 plugs gapped to .060 to take advantage of the hi voltage coil.

I&T manual says to set motor at 0 degrees TDC compression. Align rotor with #1 cylinder terminal of cap, then install into drive housing. Rotate base until breaker points just begin to open. Doing this means all the motor will do is pop and sputter. I've tried installing the distributor in all different positions and nothing works well. Right now, it will at least start and struggle on 2 cylinders for a bit and then die... The distributor is installed 2 teeth "advanced" from the way the I&T book says.

Any ideas? I'm about ready to push this thing on a long roll off a tall cliff.... I do mechanics for a living, but there's a reason why if it's a gas I won't let it in the doors of the shop. Unfortunately the ladies like this thing and wouldn't let me sell it to get a nice diesel skid steer, so I was over-ruled! LOL
Click to expand...
"Rotate base until breaker points just begin to open" At this step, it is absolutely essential that the distributor base is rotated in the OPPOSITE direction that the rotor turns. Otherwise timing will be very far off (by dwell X2).
Click to expand...

OK, in keeping with that, that's physically impossible..... The vacuum advance mechanism strikes the carburetor long before you're even close to that happening..... Which tells me the book is waaaayyy off in the way they tell you to install the distributor...
 
(quoted from post at 12:18:23 04/06/12)
(quoted from post at 09:10:30 04/06/12)
(quoted from post at 22:40:59 04/05/12) Ok.... I'm pulling my hair out on this.... Close to $2k later, this stupid thing wont start. I think my I&T manual is leading me astray. All the tractor will do is pop and backfire, or now at least start, struggle on what sounds like 2 cylinders, and die.

Block & head all checked out. Bored .030 over, full valve job. Crank turned. All new bearings, pistons, rings & gaskets. Brand new zenith replacement carburetor since the holley wanted to pour gas all over the shop floor and was one of the models you can't get a rebuild for, brand new ford clutch, pressure plate, pilot and throwout bearing, new points, condensor, cap and pertronix flamethrower coil. New Autolite 405 plugs gapped to .060 to take advantage of the hi voltage coil.

I&T manual says to set motor at 0 degrees TDC compression. Align rotor with #1 cylinder terminal of cap, then install into drive housing. Rotate base until breaker points just begin to open. Doing this means all the motor will do is pop and sputter. I've tried installing the distributor in all different positions and nothing works well. Right now, it will at least start and struggle on 2 cylinders for a bit and then die... The distributor is installed 2 teeth "advanced" from the way the I&T book says.

Any ideas? I'm about ready to push this thing on a long roll off a tall cliff.... I do mechanics for a living, but there's a reason why if it's a gas I won't let it in the doors of the shop. Unfortunately the ladies like this thing and wouldn't let me sell it to get a nice diesel skid steer, so I was over-ruled! LOL
Click to expand...
"Rotate base until breaker points just begin to open" At this step, it is absolutely essential that the distributor base is rotated in the OPPOSITE direction that the rotor turns. Otherwise timing will be very far off (by dwell X2).
Click to expand...

OK, in keeping with that, that's physically impossible..... The vacuum advance mechanism strikes the carburetor long before you're even close to that happening..... Which tells me the book is waaaayyy off in the way they tell you to install the distributor...
Click to expand...
ince that whole relationship can be changed by installing the distributor rotated one or more teeth rotated CW OR CCW from current position, I suspect that you need to move it a tooth or so in one direction or the other.
 

OK guys, got it! Tossed the service manual in the corner and timed it in the way it made sense to me.... Got the rotor lined up with #1 terminal, got the points set, and away she ran. Got it all timed in. The centrifigal advance works good. The Vacuum advance is not hooked up because the aluminum piece that the line goes into is stripped...... Got the manifold plugged so no vacuum leak. Runs great now. Revs quick and doesn't backfire. Thanks guys for your help!

-Matt
 
The first time I had that situation, I took out the plugs for 2 and 3, and tried to start it on Number One only. (It will run on one cylinder)
Ground the unused wires so you don't arc the distributor cap.

You should find top dead center by holding your thumb over the plug hole on Number one. When it stops blowing air, you're at the top. Then put the plug back in.

If you are off too far to time the distributor, just reinstall the spark plug wires one terminal over clockwise or counterclockwise as needed..
 
(quoted from post at 22:53:13 04/06/12) Good to hear!
Click to expand...
".........and timed it in the way it made sense to me.... ". Makes a fella wonder what that was?????? And what happened to vac adv interference, etc??
 
(quoted from post at 07:10:21 04/07/12)
(quoted from post at 22:53:13 04/06/12) Good to hear!
Click to expand...
".........and timed it in the way it made sense to me.... ". Makes a fella wonder what that was?????? And what happened to vac adv interference, etc??
Click to expand...

Uh, man, you didn't read my post....... If you had, I spelled out exactly how I did it and why it made more sense than the way the service manual was (erroneously) telling me to.. Which left the timing 30-45 degrees retarded..... And hence, no start.

And before you even go down the road of how my timing is prolly still off blah, blah blah, I've checked it with a timing light and it's now spot-on with my current setup.

I was gonna thank you for your help since your post about the points opening and turning of the distributor and such was my "ah-ha!" moment, but not if you're gonna come off with comments like above. :(
 
(quoted from post at 11:04:49 04/07/12)
(quoted from post at 07:10:21 04/07/12)
(quoted from post at 22:53:13 04/06/12) Good to hear!
Click to expand...
".........and timed it in the way it made sense to me.... ". Makes a fella wonder what that was?????? And what happened to vac adv interference, etc??
Click to expand...

Uh, man, you didn't read my post....... If you had, I spelled out exactly how I did it and why it made more sense than the way the service manual was (erroneously) telling me to.. Which left the timing 30-45 degrees retarded..... And hence, no start.

And before you even go down the road of how my timing is prolly still off blah, blah blah, I've checked it with a timing light and it's now spot-on with my current setup.

I was gonna thank you for your help since your post about the points opening and turning of the distributor and such was my "ah-ha!" moment, but not if you're gonna come off with comments like above. :(
Click to expand...
just wanted to comprehend what is was that 'made sense to you' and how it was different from the manual , what solved the vac adv interference and all. I didn't make any 'comments', rude, kind or otherwise, just asked questions for clarification. And would still like to understand those differences & what you did to get it timed correctly. I guess I asked before morning coffee, huh? Have a nice day anyway.
 

Sorry man. I thought you were coming off with a derogatory comment....

Well, the way the book was telling me to install it, at 0 degrees, the rotor was pointed about midway between #3 & #1 terminals, and just coming off the breaker point opening from the #3 ignition event..... I.e> the points were just closing...... Hence meaning that by the time the rotor reached #1 and opened the points, #1 cyl was long past TDC. I thought this was wrong, but the book said to do it that way, so I did... when I went on my own, I installed the distributor so that the rotor was pointed right at the #1 cyl terminal, the adjusted so the points were just starting to open. This got the timing almost spot-on. Adjusted from there with a timing light. The vacuum advance mechanism is still there, but not attached to a source of vacuum. The tractor has run without a vac advance for years and worked quite well...... The centrifugal advance works, it's operation was checked with a timing light.... Timing is around 0-2 degrees at idle, and advances from there with increased RPM. Maybe at some point I'll get the vac advance fixed, but for now, it runs great......

Sorry for the short fuse man. Didn't think you were actually asking a question, just thought you were being sarcastic.... Happens easily when you can't hear a person's voice or read their body language, like happens online.. :(
 
I spent 3 days try to get one to run after rework the engine. new points plugs cond.rotor cap. started backfired run backwards and set it on fire twice. come to find out the new condenser was bad. put the old cond. back. started and run great. all new parts are not good.
 
I am not a Ford guy but working on one now. This may be a stupid question but is the #1 cylinder the one closest to the radiator or steering wheel? We have a John Deere that #1 is by the steering wheel and I know some Deutz were built that way too. We overhaulled a 4000 diesel and cannot for the life of us get it to start.
 
(quoted from post at 20:08:24 04/10/12) I am not a Ford guy but working on one now. This may be a stupid question but is the #1 cylinder the one closest to the radiator or steering wheel? We have a John Deere that #1 is by the steering wheel and I know some Deutz were built that way too. We overhaulled a 4000 diesel and cannot for the life of us get it to start.
Click to expand...

#1 is at the radiator....
 
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