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Ford 4000 loader hydraulics

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WayneB

11-09-2006 09:21:01




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I have a HD loader to put on my 1968 Ford 4000 4x4 tractor. Loader was built for FNH 4630.

Here is the problem. Think my GPM rate is too low for loader. We put loader on a 67 5000 and it had to be revved above 1600 always, and was still just slow. At idle loader wouldn't move. Have cam driven live pump, but would need a hyd reservoir to use it only.

Question: Can I use the ford block valve (under remote), and from tractor hydraulics, feed my cam driven pump, use my tractor hydraulic reservoir and thus step up my hydraulic flow?

Wayne

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WayneB

11-11-2006 05:09:02




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 FARMHAND Loader in reply to WayneB, 11-09-2006 09:21:01  
I found a Farmhand 570 off a 4630 that will bolt up with only minor modification. It lifts more than 3000lbs. This is a bigger loader than most 4000s would use. The 4x4 front axle can take the more weight. Another issue finding a loader for a 68 4x4 4000 was finding a loader that arms would not hit the large cleated front tires of my tractor. Still another was finding a loader that had rear mounted loader support. The quick attach loaders that mount to center belly tend to crack and break with what the 4x4 pushes. I must have looked at 50 loaders. Tried to buy a new one, but they were hesitant to sell and the price shot up because in 68, there was no 4x4 Ford 4000, and new loader dealers don't have specs for it. Only one loader dealer would sell me a loader, and I would have paid more for it than my tractor. No deal.
Wayne

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WayneB

11-10-2006 15:22:48




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to WayneB, 11-09-2006 09:21:01  
OK, I already know the 4.5GPM flow rate on the 4000 is too low for the loader. Yes, I know it will work, but yes I know it will be slow. Now this is a BIG loader. It"s no little Freeman.

Back to the question. Can I pull fluid from the block under the valve, then boost it with the cam driven pump, run the loader with return back into the hydraulics?
Has anyone done this, or know it can be done?

Wayne

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jhill52

11-10-2006 16:56:36




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to WayneB, 11-10-2006 15:22:48  
Do you mean you have an additional cam driven pump? The 3pt and remote hydraulics are operated by a cam driven pump mounted on the left side of the tractor.

If you hook into the hydraulics under the seat to feed another pump the second pump will run out of fluid. The tractor is positive displacement and will only put out 4.5 gpm max period.



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WayneB

11-11-2006 04:24:13




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to jhill52, 11-10-2006 16:56:36  
Yes, I have an additional cam driven pump to install.
"Do you mean you have an additional cam driven pump?..."


Not on my 1968 Ford 4000. 3Pt and remote hydraulics are pressurized by an internal pump. "The 3pt and remote hydraulics are operated by a cam driven pump mounted on the left side of the tractor.

This is the question I asked. But how do you know this? Have you seen it? Is this speculation? Newer tractors use a booster system. What I do not know is whether they pull from pressurized flow or pull from unpressurized fluid from the rear hydrauilcs. That is why I asked the question. I am looking for someone who knows for sure. "If you hook into the hydraulics under the seat to feed another pump the second pump will run out of fluid. The tractor is positive displacement and will only put out 4.5 gpm max period."

Thanks for the replies.

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RodInNS

11-10-2006 16:55:52




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to WayneB, 11-10-2006 15:22:48  
Thinking about it some... I would say yes. You would need to pick up a flow divider/combiner (sequencing valve) and use this to combine the two separate flows. Now... I'm not sure right off how that plate is going to play with 3 point functioning.... so you might want to go with an Auxiliarry Services Control valve under the seat so that you can switch flow on or off. Again, this is if you're not sure what that robber plate is going to do to the 3 point. I'll be honest and say I'm not sure.

But yes, in principle you can combine the flow of those 2 sources. Just remember to install a relief from the engine mounted pump... HTH.

Rod

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WayneB

11-11-2006 04:32:20




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to RodInNS, 11-10-2006 16:55:52  
Rod, I have the FORD plate like the gentleman has in the picture. It will be full time live flow. The 3PH will still work with negligible degradation. I could run the loader with it, but 4.5GPM will be slow. I have used the block plate to run loaders, and with BIG loaders like this one, I know it will be so slow at idle that it will appear to be inoperative. Also, using a control valve to stop flow would likely cause my cam-driven pump to burn up. I know that if I remove loader, I must continue to run return line back or I burn up the pump.
What I am talking about is nothing more than a pony pump setup, isn't it?
Waume


"Thinking about it some... I would say yes. You would need to pick up a flow divider/combiner (sequencing valve) and use this to combine the two separate flows. Now... I'm not sure right off how that plate is going to play with 3 point functioning.... so you might want to go with an Auxiliarry Services Control valve under the seat so that you can switch flow on or off. Again, this is if you're not sure what that robber plate is going to do to the 3 point. I'll be honest and say I'm not sure.
But yes, in principle you can combine the flow of those 2 sources. Just remember to install a relief from the engine mounted pump... HTH.

Rod "

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RodInNS

11-11-2006 05:53:46




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to WayneB, 11-11-2006 04:32:20  
Wayne,

What I'm talking about is using a flow divider/combiner to combine the flow of two pumps to to give you more flow. Now I understand how that plate works... so you would plump one line from the plate into the flow combiner.

The second pump would then be mounted on the engine. The suction of that pump would need to be plumbed to the sump of the tractor. The output line of that pump would need to be run through a releif valve (and the releif valve must be able to dump directly to sump, or into the pump suction side), and then the output line would continue through to the flow combiner's input, beside the other line.

The output line from the flow combiner would then go to feed your loader valve. This system will allow you to combine the flows of the two pumps, so you should get handy 10 gpm, depending on the size of the second pump. Still not fast, but certainly improved.
The flow combiner would be available in Canada through Princess Auto, or perhaps Northern Tool in the US. Also, any local hydraulics supplier could get you one, and probably offer a bit more pertinent advice on sizing one. You may need one with some priority controls for matching 2 different flows, although I think it's straight forward... You're looking at about 200 bucks worth of valves there with the combiner and releif valve. DO NOT forget the releif valve as you have nothing else protecting that second pump. HTH.

Rod

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Rick from NC

11-09-2006 20:00:30




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to WayneB, 11-09-2006 09:21:01  
third party image

I just added the Tisco HV5902 adapter plate which I bought from this site. I posted a picture in the parts & pieces gallery. I'll try to post the same pic in this post. Installation was pretty straight forward. I had to buy new o-rings for the existing plate that gets relocated on top of the TISCO plate. The loader is slower than the old bolt on loader was with the front mounted pump but I haven't worked out how to keep the front mounted pump with the quick attach loader.

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WayneB

11-11-2006 04:49:34




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to Rick from NC, 11-09-2006 20:00:30  
Rick, I have the same plate. Ford sells them for $68.00. Mine came from the 4630, but took it to the FNH dealer and it is identical to the one they sell. 4.5GPM will be just slow. Wayne



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souNdguy

11-09-2006 12:45:41




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to WayneB, 11-09-2006 09:21:01  
I think the pump on your 5000 was bad.. or there was a leak. A pump builds pressure even at low rpm.. more rpm= more flow. Thus.. if the laoder wouldn't moove under 1600 rpm.. then you had a worn pump or a substantial leak/bypass occouring. It should have just run slow.. etc..

The mighty 4gpm pump on my ford 660 runs my loader even at 600 engine rpms.. mind you.. it's real slow...

Soundguy

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WayneB

11-11-2006 04:46:18




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to souNdguy, 11-09-2006 12:45:41  
Soundguy,

This loader is twice the size (hydraulics) of the loader on your 660. The 5000 (similiar size to the one I want to mount) did barely move at idle, but was useless. You had to revv it to 1600 to use the loader.
I think this cam-driven pump is 12.5GPM. The real problem is I have no good location to mount a reservoir. Since my tractor is 4 x 4, just finding a loader that would mount was a major chore. I have a FREEMAN loader for the 68 FORD 4000, but it interfears with the driveline. Gotta sell it. Finally found this Farmhand 570 off a 4630 that will bolt up. Need to get it mounted.
Wayne

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souNdguy

11-11-2006 06:52:09




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to WayneB, 11-11-2006 04:46:18  
Moves slow, and don't move at all are 2 different things. Your previous message made it sound like the loader did not move at all unless the engine was revved up... thus my response. Better / more precise info provided in your messages will yeild better / more correct info in the responses that follow.

Soundguy



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wayneb

11-11-2006 10:57:40




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to souNdguy, 11-11-2006 06:52:09  
Yes, Thanks. the 60 and 70s for thousand series would work the small cylinder loader ok, but the bigger loaders they are slow. Real slow.
Wayne



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135 Fan

11-11-2006 11:34:38




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to wayneb, 11-11-2006 10:57:40  
In order to combine the flow from two pumps they have to have the same pressure relieve or additional relieve valve[s] will have to be added. Dave



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Pernell

11-09-2006 12:33:04




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to WayneB, 11-09-2006 09:21:01  
The one pump will only do so much, an auxillary pump driven by the crank pulley is your best alternative. Back in the day of the 4000, the loader cylinders were smaller which made them act quicker.



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WayneB

11-11-2006 04:59:28




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 Re: Ford 4000 loader hydraulics in reply to Pernell, 11-09-2006 12:33:04  
Pernell, The cam-driven pump accomplishes the same thing as the aux crank driven pump. Gear-driven. You are right though about remote pumps.

When I mounted my Wagner on my Dexta, I used a crank driven pump via shaft, and had to use it at idle, because it was too fast at high RPM. This is ideal. First because it was live, second because of the GPM flow. With the Wagner, the reservoir was in the loader, but with this loader I have for my 4000, I have to find an external reservoir.

"The one pump will only do so much, an auxillary pump driven by the crank pulley is your best alternative. Back in the day of the 4000, the loader cylinders were smaller which made them act quicker. "

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