Hard Starting 23c on Massey 35

Needs to be towed to start every day even if the engine is still warm. Is there some type of setting to do to the timing or injector pump to get it to start off the key. We do use glow plugs but still has to be towed. Any help would be appreciated.

Unfortunately this was the big problem with this engine and why they changed to the Perkins later. You say that you are using the heaters, are you sure they are operating, from how you say it your engine must be one of those that had four heaters, if one of the plugs is not working it will not start, on some, if one of the plugs is not working, none of the plugs will heat at all. Make sure EACH plug is working, check all the connections on the starter and heater circuits that they are clean, bright and tight. Are you using the Ki-gas when you are trying to start it, you may find that using this will help. If you are wondering what goes in the Ki-gas tank, it is just diesel, make sure that the atomiser is clean and clear where it goes into the manifold. Put the heat on for 30 seconds and then pump the Ki-gas 3 times and turn it on the starter as you do it. Is the engine "breathing" this shows as blowing what looks like steam from the pipe down the right side of the engine at the back of the starter, if it is then there is some blow-by on the pistons and if you check it you may find that it will need sleeves and pistons, don't attempt to just fit rings, very often it doesn't work out. Are you sure that the starter is spinning it over fast enough, the bush on the pinion end wears and the armature tends to twist across the starter housing (run out of line) and this put additional load on the starter so it will not run as fast as it should do. Are the batteries up to scratch, are they the correct type, if you have only one fitted like some have done, have you got a good quality heavy duty type. If you don't have a good battery it will never start; and is it charging properly to keep the batteries fully charged, it may not be fully charged which will not help the battery. Regarding the wiring terminals, I said earlier that they must be BRIGHT, this will make sure that they are clean before they are tightened up, you can have them tight but still make a poor connection. Are the battery leads heavy enough, they have to carry a lot of amperage and if you have a thin leads like on a car, they will not be heavy enough. The earth/ground lead needs to be fastened close to the starter so it isn't going all through the tractor which will have rusted by now at the joints and so will not be making a good connection anymore. You don't say if your tractor is a TO35 or an FE35 there are differences so we can only generalise.....John

John thanks so much for all the information. It is an FE35. It does have a brand new heavy duty battery and battery cables. It has four new glo plugs, new switch, new wiring going to the glo plugs. It does have blow by. Is Ki the new lubricated starting fluid with ether. It also has a brand new starter two months ago. I even sprayed the ether directly into the plug hole in the intake manifold and that didn't work. How much compression should the cylinders have. The serial number is 145277, and massey says it was made in 1950 and also 1959 according to their two serial number lists. The battery is an 800 amp 12 volt battery. The tractor was built in the Conventry, England plant. Was this one with the four glo plugs a newer style engine, is there any way to tell. Where is the serial number on engine located and how many numbers is there to it, etc. Any other information you have would be so appreciated, I am at wits end trying to get this baby going. I will appreciate your help.
Thanks

Brian
New Brunswick, Canada

John: another question for you; what was the engines used in after Massey stopped using them. If I knew what they were used in I may be able to go in that direction and trace down more information.
Thanks
Brian

The engine after the 23c was the Perkins 3-152 but there are a few different versions of that all with slightly different horsepower, they will all interchange. The first ones were indirect injection, later types were direct, but they all start easily. The first ones were rated at 37hp. like the 23c then came one about 39hp and then 41hp then 44hp, the tractor will accept any of them, the drive-line is strong enough. The first ones were in 1959 from about August. Only problem you may have is the flywheel if you have a Dual Clutch, the one from a Standard Engine does not fit a Perkins which is very heavy, to smooth out the three cylinders, but it is a brilliant engine. Email direct if you need more....John
PS to tell which are direct and indirect injection, the injectors are vertical on the indirect and slope in the Head at an angle if it is direct. Same type of engines fitted to 35, 35x, 135, 240 and other 3 cylinder types.

All FE35's were made in Coventry UK, there is a mix up somewhere in the serial numbers as they were never made in 1950, I would think that you have looked at the wrong list, the one for the TE20 tractor, that serial number would be about right for 1950. You tractor if it is 1959 is one of the last ones made, it should be red and grey if it is, if it is grey and bronze it is earlier than that. The engine with the four heaters was an attempt to get the damn thing starting easily, some were good at starting but most were awful. They always used plain diesel in the Ki-gas pumps and that was fine but I can see that a mix with ether would benefit cold starting and it would be better than straight ether. The engine number is on the block just above the Generator and just below the Head mounting line. it is prefixed by SJ then about 5 numbers and ends with E. If it has blow-by and it is bad then it needs major work but even then don't expect anything brilliant in the starting department..John

Hi Brian -

Had one of those critters in the fleet a few years back. Even after a complete rebuild the unit needed to have a block heater on for an hour in the summertime to start. Ran beautifully once it fired up; smooth, lots of power. Smoked quite a bit (bluish) until it got really warmed up.

Now the tractors are all perkins, and they do start nicely! Light years easier than the Standard. The later direct injections are even easier starting than the earlier indirect injection units.

I still have the original Coventry parts manual for the FE with the 23C. It has more info based on the serial number of the engine once you find it.

I think the 23C ws used in some UK trucks and sports cars at that time. The timing chain tensioner, for example, was available for under $10 from I think British Victoria, a US firm specalizing in UK sports car products.

John UK - can you recall what units used the same engine?

Jack Wetmore in Fredericton

The same engine was fitted to the Allis-Chalmers ED40, John Deere (no idea of model) Commer trucks, Coventry Climax Fork Lift Trucks. This engine was later renamed when Leyland took over Standard and it was then OE138 and they also made a larger version OE160 (never seen one)
....John

Hey Jack we are just about neighbors, I am outside Moncton, (Salisbury). Is there any chance you can check in your book the serial number is SJ113858ED and it is direct injection. If possible you could email direct at [email protected] I tried sending you a private message but the site is under construction. Thanks, Brian

I was told recently that the head with four glow plugs (unless the original head has been drilled) was a head from the commercial engine, and that this head produced lower compression than the standard head, which, coupled with a little blow past or poorly seating valves could easily cause starting problems..... maybe someone can confirm this? I have seen a couple of these engines start instantly with no heat, but i dont know how!! Ours was addicted to easy start!

The 23c engine as fitted to the MF35 did have four heater plugs fitted from new, there were two versions of the electrics though, one had the plugs in series the other had them in parallel. You are correct, there were some heads drilled by a firm in the south of England, just how successful I have never heard. There was also a lower compression engine used in commercial vehicles, this had a compression ratio of 17.5:1 while the tractor was 20:1. I was told that the lower compression was much better starting and that the MF version had the compression increased at the request of MF, this was to increase the torque of the engine which by all accounts was a bit sluggish in the low compression form. The tractors were supplied with the high compression head with 4 heaters not with the low compression, as far as I am aware no tractors were supplied with the low compression engine although they must have trialled them. Once you use easy start on this engine you can forget it, a lot of the problems arise because people get a little too heavy handed with the can. There are some engines that start without much heat, they say that all the connections on the wiring must be clean and bright so they make a proper connection, they should have the very heavy battery leads and the proper batteries or it wont spin it over fast enough. I also read only in the last few weeks about someone who had increased the size of the combustion chambers on the Head and that cured it BUT I have seen so many and worked on so may that don't start easily that I would have to see for myself before I believe it. The pump timing has to be spot on and the way it is driven it can and does wear and of course alters the timing, so it needs to be checked quite often....John

John: Thanks for the info, could you tell me what degree to set the timing of the pump.
Thanks, Brian

I will need the number off the fuel injection pump, it is on an oval plate held on with two rivets. email it to me at:-
[email protected]
it will start with DPA
and I will work out what it should be....John

A world of information john, thanks for clearing that up!! Incedently, is there much difference between the 20c and the 23c? My TEF starts instantly with no heat ever (the heater is broken anyway) Did you say all tractors with the 23c engine had 4 plugs.... ive seen so many that havent!! must be all head changes then??

Quite a bit of difference between the two engine mainly fuel injection stuff and the type of head. The crank and pistons you can tell are related if you see them side by side.
No I didn't say them all. only the late ones had the four heaters.The TEF will start most of the time even when cold without heat, just use the excess fuel and it will go....it has to be really cold for you to need to use heaters....John