rod and main bearing "TANGS" on TO20

Buggyboy

Member
OK,, on my everlasting project, I have come up on something beyond my knowledge, it seems. As I posted sometime back, I had replaced the rod bearings on the TO20 AND since I did not notice the orinentation of the bearing tangs, as the caps came out,,,I installed the caps with the tangs on SAME SIDE like I have on several SBC engines with the tangs on same side of the rods,!! Now, it seems the tangs are suppossed to be on OPPOSITE sides according to some articles I find on the internet,,,,WTH,,,??? AND,,guess what,,,? I also installed the new main bearings the same way, which appears to be wrong,,,is why the rotating assy was so hard to turn,,!! Can anyone confirm the correct orientination of the tangs for me ,,,,PLEASE!!!!
NEED SOME HELP,,!!
 
(quoted from post at 10:52:56 06/01/22) OK,, on my everlasting project, I have come up on something beyond my knowledge, it seems. As I posted sometime back, I had replaced the rod bearings on the TO20 AND since I did not notice the orinentation of the bearing tangs, as the caps came out,,,I installed the caps with the tangs on SAME SIDE like I have on several SBC engines with the tangs on same side of the rods,!! Now, it seems the tangs are suppossed to be on OPPOSITE sides according to some articles I find on the internet,,,,WTH,,,??? AND,,guess what,,,? I also installed the new main bearings the same way, which appears to be wrong,,,is why the rotating assy was so hard to turn,,!! Can anyone confirm the correct orientination of the tangs for me ,,,,PLEASE!!!!
NEED SOME HELP,,!!


You should have looked at the rods for "match marks" or numbering that matches on the same side of the rods before you took off the caps, making your own if none existed.

In most cases, factory marks are on the camshaft side of the rods.

Have you looked REALLY close for factory marks or numbers or markings from someone who's been in there before?

Same with the main caps, there MAY be existing marks on the caps and matching ones on the block.

Worst case scenario, you may need to take the block and rods to an automotive machine shop and have them checked and matched, and the machined IF needed.

It's good practice to have the rods "checked" as part of an overhaul anyhow.
 

JEEEZE, guy,,did you get up on the wrong side of your bed?
I was under the impression that the site was to "Help" those that love these tractors and are trying to keep them running,,but you have now proven me wrong.
Hope you do have a better ,"rest of the day",,,!!
 
I have never seen any rod or main caps on anything that didn't have the locks together. I worked as an auto mechanic many years have rebuilt engines
for almost 50 years.
 
(quoted from post at 14:10:51 06/01/22)
JEEEZE, guy,,did you get up on the wrong side of your bed?
I was under the impression that the site was to "Help" those that love these tractors and are trying to keep them running,,but you have now proven me wrong.
Hope you do have a better ,"rest of the day",,,!!

I went back and read my reply, and still consider it as trying to be helpful!

There is no second chance here to get things right, or you will end up with a spun bearing or a thrown rod and piece of scrap rather than a useful engine.

Working with engine bearings is serious business if you expect to have an engine that will last and it pays to be careful and pay attention to details.

Did you take my suggestion and have a CLOSE look for previous "match marks''?
 


Hey Papaw8,,many THANKS for your input, I DO appreciate your time. I am like you in that I've rebuilt many, mostly SBC's and have always placed the tangs, lips tabs on same side of the rod,,, I did find this on the web earlier on, Ferguson TO20 Z120 engines,,,," Also, it may be helpful to note that the notches for the tongues of the liners must be on OPPOSITE sides of the shaft" (end quote) All them different words are kinda confusing,,,,?
Does "tongues" mean tang or lip or tab of the bearings?
Does liners mean bearings?
 

OK, it's been a LONG day for me on this thing,,,!!! Let's start over. I did not want to get long winded as I sometimes do but after the ruckus started,, I removed the main caps and cleaned em on the grinder with wire brush and there ain't nuttin on any of the 3, Always before I have placed the main and rod caps with the tabs on same side but for some reason that escapes me at this point, the dang crank became very hard to turn so I knew something not correct,,,
 
Image from parts manual showing the tabs are not on the same side.

cvphoto127226.png
 

Well, Tom H,,,you are "King For A Day" in my book,,!! This has been distressing me for the longest. I actually took that statement I quoted from a Ferguson Shop Manual that some kind person here sent me some years ago and I did also find ONE mention on YouTube. I have rebuilt many engines before mostly SBC and SBF with a few others in there and have NEVER come across this before. I went back and re-read the whole section on engine rebuilding in the Ferguson Shop Manual and did not find mention of that any where else,,,,HMMM,,???
Again, Tom, Thank you , My Friend.
 
I went back and re-read the whole section on engine rebuilding in the Ferguson Shop Manual and did not find mention of that any where else,,,,HMMM,,???
Buggy boy , take a look at page 35 of the Ferguson Dealer Shop manual covering TO20 plus a few more . I t may address what you have questions about.
 
(quoted from post at 21:29:47 06/01/22) Image from parts manual showing the tabs are not on the same side.

<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto127226.png>
or the detail being questioned in these threads, I sure would NOT put much faith in an illustrators sketch for an answer, especially an illustration aimed at parts indenification versus how to assemble in detail!
 
The rear main bearing cap will fit only one way to the block. The other bearings will fit in the same orientation as that bearing.
I have built many motors in my lifetime, foreign, domestic, automotive, agricultural, motorcycle, and stationary. I have never seen main or rod bearing caps that were assembled in any other way than the tangs facing each other.
BillL
 
Since there still seems to be uncertainty about this, I went to the bone pile and found a TO-30 rod/piston assembly.

First picture shows the #3 stamped on both the rod and cap. This serves as index marks and should be on the same side. I had one Ford engine in which the rods were not numbered and indexed this way, every other engine has had either a number stamped or stake marks to identify the cylinder and rod/cap orientation.
mvphoto92923.jpg


Showing the bearing shell with the tang visible on the cap but not the rod.
mvphoto92924.jpg



Cap removed showing the tangs opposite each other.
mvphoto92925.jpg
 

And there we have it! Authoritative but circumstantial evidence from the parts catalogue and now empirical evidence from eyes on the ground! Thanks Tom H. and pomester.
 

YES,,,and ole ARK68SS (1968 Chevelle Super Sport?) has got me to go take a REAL close look-see at the actual block as to what he is saying.
1. The rear main cap will ONLY go on ONE way, and with it having the tang register in block it "requires" the tangs be assembeled opposite from each other.
2. The front main cap will also go ONLY ONE WAY on block due to a "small pin" on same side as the tang register on the block. There is also a bigger locating pin on opposite side. This places the main cap bearing tangs " On Opposite Sides of block.. ( which will place the front bearing tangs on SAME side as the rear main bearing tangs)
3. The middle main cap is the wild card and is what got me asking WTH,,,,,LOL. It CAN go either way but the correct way would be to follow the other two perscribed orientations,,,,,

SHEEESH, I hope ya'll can make sense of all this,,,,
I have to say,, as others do likewise,,this is very FIRST engine I have EVER worked on that places the bearing tangs opposite from each other. Not saying it is wrong as Mr Ferguson was a well known and respected engineer but he must of had a dang good reason for building so many engines with this modification,,,,? I have also read that the main CAPS are installed and torqued down before line bored at the factory, so the center maain cap has to be same as the front and rear to be correct.
I want to THANK all the people that took time to post,,I DO appreciate every one of ya'll,,!!!!

OOOPS,,,one more thing,,According to an old I&T book I picked up, the oil squirt hole on the connecting rods has to point towards the camshaft which orientates the notch on top of piston to front of engine. NOW,,following the procedure on the crankshaft bearing tang orientation,,,do we follow the "Opposite Side Tang Orientation" on the rod bearings as well?????
 
You might take the bearings out of the rod and cap and put the cap on the rod and see if the inner circle matches where the rod and cap meet. The
parting edges should match better one way than the other. Also the side edges.
 

Great idea Papaw8,,I'm gonna do just that when I get back to work area,,,,,
I'm sure glad to be going over all these issues,, as,,, if you followed my original assembly,,,I used my many years of building engines and Now looking like I was wrong in assembling the TO20 same as all them SBC's and SBF's because it is different and as I progressed in the assembly,,,the dang rotating assembly kept getting harder and harder to turn and finally LOCKED UP with one rod assy yet to be assembled!
With ya'lls help and assistance,,,this is gonna be one heck of a LONG lasting engine,,!!!!
 
Ferguson may have been smarter than we think. A rod bearing will try to spin with the crank. When the locks are together one tang will be end butted
against the rod or cap. The other tang will have a ramp it could pull down in. I would think the end butted would resist turning better. Maybe old Harry
put them on opposite sides to have both end butted against rotating the direction the crank is turning. I have never seen this before but there's a lot I
haven't seen.
 
One way should be a perfect match. That would be the way they were assembled when when the rod was honed to size.
 
I am sure you have already checked to be sure the bearings are the right size for the crank as not .010 or .020 on a standard crank. I have not been on
the Ferguson board before so I am new to your rebuild.
 

Hey Papaw8,,yeah, in a previous post, I noted the crank and the rod journals required .010 OS bearings as indicated by a trusted caliper. Thanks for staying with me on this,,,,,
 
"Ferguson may have been smarter than we think..."

No doubt an intelligent man but don't give him credit for Continental engines. Continental Motors Company was an ongoing company producing engines on contract for a lot of manufacturers.

From Wikipedia

"Continental Motors Company was an American manufacturer of internal combustion engines. The company produced engines as a supplier to many independent manufacturers of automobiles, tractors, trucks, and stationary equipment (such as pumps, generators, and industrial machinery drives) from the 1900s thru the 1960s. Continental Motors also produced automobiles in 1932-1933 und the name Continental Automobile Company. The Continental Aircraft Engine Company was formed in 1929 to develop and produce its aircraft engines, and would become the core business of Continental Motors, Inc."
 
I knew some of the Massey Ferguson gas tractors were continental, have owned some but I never owned a Ferguson to20
 
(quoted from post at 15:10:19 06/08/22) "Ferguson may have been smarter than we think..."

No doubt an intelligent man but don't give him credit for Continental engines. Continental Motors Company was an ongoing company producing engines on contract for a lot of manufacturers.

From Wikipedia

"Continental Motors Company was an American manufacturer of internal combustion engines. The company produced engines as a supplier to many independent manufacturers of automobiles, tractors, trucks, and stationary equipment (such as pumps, generators, and industrial machinery drives) from the 1900s thru the 1960s. Continental Motors also produced automobiles in 1932-1933 und the name Continental Automobile Company. The Continental Aircraft Engine Company was formed in 1929 to develop and produce its aircraft engines, and would become the core business of Continental Motors, Inc."

Hey Pomester,,hoping you are privy to some info that I would LOVE to have,,,,,Since I understand that the TO20 is a Continental engine,,do you know which other engine (s)shares the same Bell housing bolt pattern as the TO20,,,?? Reason is,,I have another TO20 that the engine has suffered the usual cracked web issue at bottom of the liner area. I welded the three areas up and pressured that block up to 12# and looks good but decided to use this block because it was not cracked. Now, I am STILL interested in an swap with another brand of engine that would possibly interchange into the Z120's place. I also happen to have a great candidate in a 149 Allis Chaalmers if It can be married into the TO20,,,,,??? Maybe,,,???
 
"do you know which other engine (s)shares the same Bell housing bolt pattern as the TO20,,,??"

I am unaware of any direct bolt-in motors for the TO Fergusons. I've seen V-8s installed using custom made adapter plates. You'd need to accommodate the front axle assembly also.
 
Depending on the country you reside / continent...
The Ferguson TEA-20 was and still is a superior engine.
Stand alone wet liners...:)

Here in Canada, the Ferguson TEA-20 and other derivatives of the TEA-20 was marketed with the Standard Engine. Made in
England.
Thousands of the TEA-20's arrived in Canada as well as Australia and other Continents.
Depending on parts availability, I can assure you the Standard Engine was and still is an excellent engineered engine.
My 1951 TEA-20 has thousands of running hours...
Several overhauls.......

I have not used any Engine or Transmission parts off any of my three spare parts Tractors...
Pic of Engine was a fun overhaul....now Just a spare engine..
Bob..
cvphoto127883.jpg


cvphoto127884.jpg


cvphoto127885.jpg


cvphoto127886.jpg
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As John Deere D says, a Standard engine should bolt straight in but I believe it would have to be the 6 volt version produced before '51 so the starter would match up with the bell housing.

More Continental history: Except for a very few models available with Perkins gas engines all N.American built Massey Ferguson gassers used Continental motors. Some of the last gas tractors made (by any manufacturer) were Continental powered Massey Ferguson 230s from the early '80s.

This post was edited by Brian-S on 06/10/2022 at 06:11 am.
 
(quoted from post at 05:52:17 06/10/22) As John Deere D says, a Standard engine should bolt straight in but I believe it would have to be the 6 volt version produced before '51 so the starter would match up with the bell housing.

More Continental history: Except for a very few models available with Perkins gas engines all N.American built Massey Ferguson gassers used Continental motors. Some of the last gas tractors made (by any manufacturer) were Continental powered Massey Ferguson 230s from the early '80s.

This post was edited by Brian-S on 06/10/2022 at 06:11 am.

Hey Brian, Thanks for that info.
Well, the moment of Truth got here yesterday with a new set of main bearings, so I plastigauged em and am very satisfied with the oil film clearances of .002, .003 and .002. I'm gonna remove the crank to verify Papaw's suggestion to check the fit of rod caps to the rods to make sure which orientation for the rod caps aligns best.
I received the mains for a TO30 which are SAME SIZE as the TE20 and TO20, altho the TO30 does not have the lip to control END PLAY. Called YT and they tell me I will have to use the two brass "washers" included in the kit for thrust forward with additional shims as needed at the gear to address the rear thrust. No Biggie,,I think,,,
Anyone got a dwg on the shim arrangement for End Play for the TO30,,,??
 

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