TO-20 hydraulic pump not working - ice damage appears li

Rickoff

Member
Back in late October 2021 I connected my snowblower attachment to the 3-point hitch, and was able to raise it with the hydraulic lift. During the winter, the temperature dropped to zero and below here in Maine for nearly a straight 30 days, and when the first big snowstorm hit, I found that I could not move the shift lever into the engine start position. I was able to get the engine started by connecting an engine cranking switch across the starter terminals, but found that the hydraulic lift was inoperative. It seemed obvious that some amount of water had formed from condensation, mixed into the fluid, and had frozen, so I waited for the first day warm enough to melt the ice and drained all the fluid, replacing it with 6 gallons of fresh mineral oil. When I started opening the 3 drain plugs, water was the first thing to come out, and I would guess that there was about 2 quarts of water in all. After installing the fresh mineral oil, the lift still would not work, so it would seem that the freeze-up somehow damaged the hydraulic pump. The PTO shaft does engage and spin, but nothing else seems to be going on. Now that warmer weather has arrived, I of course want to repair the pump. I'm wondering who else on this forum may have run into the same issue, and what parts were needed for the repair, as I would want to be sure I have what is needed on hand before removing the pump. Thanks in advance for replies with suggestions.

This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/03/2022 at 09:07 am.
 
From what I read on the Ford 'N' forum, it's not uncommon (same basic pump). I would drop the pump out and inspect it to see what parts you may need.
Overhaul kits are available.
 
I agree with Jim. First, do you have a repair manual? If so follow procedures as described to drop the pump. If the casting broke( I have one
that did just that) you will have to find one. Then do a rebuild kit to bring it up to snuff. Email me I may be able to help with finding one
used.



Tom
 
I'm not sure about your TO-20 pump, but when I bought my 35 Utility it had probably 2 gallons or more water in the case.

That water had frozen and literally blew the control valve right out of the hydraulic pump. I rebuilt the pump and it's been fine ever since. You might be able to drain it and use a borescope to see what's going on down in there, but if you have a helper or other equipment it's not too bad to pull the top cover and just dive into it.
 
I would take off the side plates and make sure that the T shaped part of the control valve and was connected to the H
shaped control fork sockets and the control valve itself wasn't stuck. Ypu'll have to reach down into the oil to do this.
DO NOT do this with the engine running!

If all is well with the control valve connections, push and pull on the control valve itself. It pnly moves a little over
an inch. It should move freely.

next start the engine and connect the pto. UNDERNO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD YOU STICK YOUR HANDS INTO THE HYDRAULIC COMPARTMENT
WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING! Start the engine and observe the area about the pump. Is there any fluid coming out of the
corners of the pump. If so the pump gaskets are leaking. Move the lift lever up and down and see if the control linkage
moves the control valve. Report back on what you find.
 
I had the same problem this winter and also live in Maine (Solon). Mine got resolved by heating the area through a side panel and melting the ice that was in the valve. Ended up changing the oil and all is working well.
Best of luck with your fix.
 
Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I do have a repair manual as well as a parts book. Jerry - your reference to the "side plates" would appear to be the round plates at either side of the "Center Housing" - the one on the right side containing the fluid dipstick, and the one on the left containing the PTO engagement lever. At the time of the freeze-up, after draining some of the fluid, I had removed the left side plate to see what was preventing the PTO lever from moving, and could see that there was a considerable amount of ice in the cavity. After draining as much fluid as possible, I used a handheld propane torch to melt the ice away. I never removed the right side cover, and I'll follow your suggestion on doing that to check the connections. That's quite possibly the reason why the lift won't operate. I can see that I'll have to drain at least some portion of fluid before removing the cover plate, or considerable oil spill would occur, since the full mark on the dipstick is about an inch above the bottom of the cover plate. What's more, the level showing on the dipstick is actually a half inch above the full mark after having put in the 6 gallons of fluid that is specified. I think I'll just go ahead and drain all the fluid so that I can better see exactly what's going on in there.

The view shown in figure 295, on page 157 of the repair manual, is not a very good one, and has some sort of tool obstructing the view so that I can't really see what would be the "T shaped part of the control valve" that should be "connected to the H-shaped control fork sockets." In looking at the Hydraulic pump image shown on page 146 of the parts manual, which I will show a partial image of herein, I'd assume that part #6 is the T-shaped control valve, and that part #14 is the fork, as that is the only part labeled as a "fork assembly." Is this understanding correct? I don't see anything in the diagram that appears to be H-shaped, and don't see what you mean by "H-shaped control fork sockets," so maybe I'm looking at the wrong parts diagram. Or, is there something that directly connects to the "T" (part #10 in the diagram) which is not shown in this view? I do see something called a "Fork assembly, hydraulic control" (part #25 and 26 in the parts book diagram on page 142, and a "stabilizer, fork" (part #34) which actually does look somewhat H-shaped. Is this what connects to the T in the other diagram?



(quoted from post at 08:50:07 05/04/22) I would take off the side plates and make sure that the T shaped part of the control valve and was connected to the H
shaped control fork sockets and the control valve itself wasn't stuck. Ypu'll have to reach down into the oil to do this.
DO NOT do this with the engine running!

If all is well with the control valve connections, push and pull on the control valve itself. It pnly moves a little over
an inch. It should move freely.

next start the engine and connect the pto. UNDERNO CIRCUMSTANCE SHOULD YOU STICK YOUR HANDS INTO THE HYDRAULIC COMPARTMENT
WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING! Start the engine and observe the area about the pump. Is there any fluid coming out of the
corners of the pump. If so the pump gaskets are leaking. Move the lift lever up and down and see if the control linkage
moves the control valve. Report back on what you find.
i

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mvphoto91969.jpg


This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/11/2022 at 01:00 pm.
 
Rickoff, what you said about the oil level is very interesting. Last year, I replaced all the fluid in my TO-20. I assumed it took 5 gallons and poured that in. The oil level showed full on the dip stick and still does today. It was some time later that I stumbled across the spec. that said it took 6 gallons. I've been confused about that ever since.
I could have added a 6th gallon and forgot but sure don't remember doing that.

This post was edited by Jim L WA on 05/11/2022 at 10:31 am.
 
Yes, Jim, that is rather strange that the Ferguson specs would be wrong. I bought the mineral oil in three 2-gallon containers at the local Tractor Supply Company, and since the specs said 6 gallons, I dumped all of it in. Next time around I would dump 4 gallons, then keep checking the dipstick as I add more. I'd guess that 5 gallons probably is about right, as you say. Even if added only to the full mark, though, that would still allow oil to spill out if a side cover is removed, so if not draining all the oil before removing a side cover then it would be a good idea to perhaps drain at least a gallon, or maybe more.

I do see that, right on the dipstick itself, it says that the level should be to the full mark "with lift arms fully extended," which of course means all the way up. That should show a lower level than with the arms dropped down, and would explain why 5 gallons at rest would appear full, though I doubt that the hydraulic lift cylinder capacity would account for the need for a 6th gallon of fluid.

This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/14/2022 at 03:54 pm.
 
Sounds as though you did pretty much the same as me, mhadavi, but got lucky. I hope that this is just a control linkage problem, but will rebuild the pump if need be. I think that a smart thing to do, for those of us living where it gets very cold in winter, would be to simply crack the drain plugs open just enough to drain off any accumulated water (without actually removing them) around early October. Any water in there would be the first thing to come out, since oil floats on top of water. If we do this each October it would prevent the problem we ran into, and the mineral oil would probably only need changing every 3 years or so. BTW, I'm in Dixmont, about 40 miles east from you.

This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/11/2022 at 01:16 pm.
 
Well, taking my own advice given in my previous post I prepared to drain the fluid by first cracking the hydraulic pump drain plug open just enough so that water started coming out, and caught that in a coffee tin. It looked to be about a half cup. Then I moved a 4 gallon drain pan beneath the plug and started draining. The fluid came out so fast that I was barely able to stop the flow before it reached the top of the pan, by re-inserting the plug. I probably should have drained the transmission first. Anyways, after draining the remaining fluid into another pan and removing the round side covers, I could see the control fork was indeed still attached to the control valve. Moving the control lever up and down, I could see that the control fork was definitely moving the control valve freely. So, looks as though the next step will be to disconnect the control linkage, remove the PTO shaft, and drop the pump for inspection.
 

BTW, I'm in Dixmont.

I can see the Dixmont hills from my road in Eddington.

My To-30 sits out side all year, and I haven't tried to start it while below freezing. So far each spring the hydraulics have worked. Your story has prompted me to change the oil, and replace the gearshift rubber boot.
 
I've run into a bit of a stumbling block. According to page 148 of the repair manual, "After removing the four retaining cap screws, the PTO assembly should easily slide from the center housing." Well that does not appear to be the case. The manual goes on to say that, "if difficulty is encountered removing the shaft, this is an indication that the shaft is either bent or twisted." The shaft is definitely not bent, as there is zero runout at the exposed end of the shaft when the shaft is rotated. Now I'm wondering whether the shaft actually is twisted, as the repair manual suggests, or if there may be another reason why I can't withdraw the assembly.

The only likely contender, in my opinion, would be the 4-bolt retaining flange, which is referred to as "Cover, P.T.O. shaft" in the diagram on page 114 of the parts book. After removing the 4 bolts holding it in place, and finding that I could not withdraw the shaft assembly, I wondered if the flanged cover may have seized in place over time. I tapped all around the flange with a hammer hoping to free it up, but that didn't help, so I then attempted to rotate the flange slightly, to loosen it, by striking with a punch and hammer near one of the bolt holes. That did not cause any movement whatsoever, which seems to confirm my suspicion that the flange is seized. I was worried that striking the punch with more force could cause the flange to crack or break, so didn't attempt that.

In looking at the diagram on page 114 of the parts book, the flanged PTO shaft cover, part #8, appears to have a rounded surface just ahead of the flange, which would seat into the housing. This is a relatively poor representation, though, since figure 282 on page 148 of the repair manual shows that there is indeed a shiny rounded surface extending perhaps a half inch or less ahead of the flange, but that the largest portion of this extension is a smaller diameter, and in fact actually tapers to an even smaller diameter, as figure 287 shows. Since there is a gasket between the flange and the housing it bolts to, no seizing could occur between those surfaces, so the only logical contender would be the shiny surface seen ahead of the flange. If this surface had not seized then it seems to me that I should have been able to rotate the flange when I attempted to do that, because this would be a close fit, but not a pressed fit. Since we know that water was circulating with the fluid, this could quite likely have caused the shiny surface to have rusted enough to initiate a seizure.

Unless someone has a better idea to offer, I'll try heating the flange with a propane torch, and striking one of the flange corners again to see if I can turn the flange to free it up. If it still doesn't budge then perhaps I can apply a large pipe wrench to the external surface behind the flange and attempt using more substantial force.


mvphoto92105.jpg



This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/14/2022 at 12:02 pm.
 
Rickoff, I haven't personally run into it, but it's not unheard of that the spline at the far end of the shaft gets twisted. However I think that in those cases the folks have gotten the shaft to move an inch or so. I would try to get a screw driver or something driven in between the flange and the housing.
keep us updated.
Not to keep you up at night, but if the spline is twisted, sometimes the only resort was to cut the shaft off just before it exits the pump.
 
(quoted from post at 05:45:18 05/14/22)
BTW, I'm in Dixmont.

I can see the Dixmont hills from my road in Eddington.

My To-30 sits out side all year, and I haven't tried to start it while below freezing. So far each spring the hydraulics have worked. Your story has prompted me to change the oil, and replace the gearshift rubber boot.

Yes, Peaked Mountain in Dixmont, which has the communications tower with red lights that can be seen at night, can be seen from quite far away. I doubt that water is entering through your gearshift boot unless it is broken, and water would have a hard time trying to find any place to enter unless it was being blown into the opening around the PTO shaft, and passing through the shaft bearing. If part # 181 181 M1 (screw-in PTO shaft cap) is still available, and you don't already have one, that would seem to be a good preventive measure. I really do think, though, that most water that accumulates in the case comes from air condensation. It's much the same as how a toilet tank will drip water which forms on the outside of the tank because of warm air contacting the cool, water-filled tank, except that it happens inside the case.
 
I know what you mean, Jim. The first thing that comes to mind is how you wish you could wedge something between the two mating surfaces to spread them apart. Unfortunately, because the gasket is so thin, you wouldn't be able to wedge in anything much thicker than a razor blade, so that wouldn't help, and I didn't want to take the chance of gouging either of the mating surfaces by trying to force anything wider in between. So, I tried heating the cover flange and tapping at a corner with hammer and punch, but that didn't rotate the flange. What did work was my second choice - the use of a 24 inch adjustable plumber's wrench. With that applied, I was able to rotate the flange and break it free from the housing without damaging it. I'll include a photo showing the PTO shaft and flanged cover alongside the wrench, and another photo showing a close-up of the flanged cover with dimensions shown. I'm very glad that I followed my own logical train of thought rather than simply relying on the advice of the repair manual, which advises that when a PTO shaft cannot be easily withdrawn, one should separate the center housing from the transmission housing and cut the PTO shaft rather than attempting to remove it any other way. Once I rotated the flange, it was indeed a simple matter to pull the shaft out, and as can be seen in the photo the splines are straight as an arrow. If your eyes tell you that the PTO shaft appears bent, rest assured that is just an illusion caused by the camera lens, which tends to give a curvature to long objects.
mvphoto92142.jpg


mvphoto92143.jpg
 

Yes, it's on to dropping the pump now, after I disconnect the control linkage from the control valve. It was just too darned hot here yesterday, at 94 degrees, to do any more work. Folks who live in more southerly states may not mind temperatures in the 90's, but here in Maine anything over 75 begins to feel rather hot, and temps in the 90's are unusual and feel almost unbearable, especially to old geezers like myself. Today the temp is back down to around 60 and feeling great, but this morning I could see it was preparing to rain so wasted all morning mowing and gardening. After having some lunch, I'm heading back out to the garage to continue working on the tractor.

Funny, but the repair manual says to "loosen the bolts holding the stabilizer to the fork and spread the ends of the control fork sufficiently to remove the control valve cross arms," but only the TO-30 uses a fork stabilizer. I'm hoping that I can spread the control fork ends by hand pressure, without need of conjuring a tool for that purpose.
 
I found it quite difficult to grasp the control fork sides with both hands, so could see that a tool to spread them apart would be most useful. In thinking about what tool I already had that could be used for this purpose, it came to mind that a carpenters trigger type bar clamp could be just what I needed. While bar clamps are usually used to clamp and squeeze something you are working on, the smaller jaw end of the tool can be detached and placed on the opposite end of the bar so that the tool can be used as a spreader, to push two items apart from each other. I have a few 12-inch and 6-inch bar clamps, and reconfigured one of the 6-inch ones as a spreader, similarly to the below photo, which is actually of a 12-inch bar clamp. Unfortunately, even the 6-inch size bar clamp could only be used as a spreader on items at least 4 and 1/2 inches apart, and the fork sides are just 3 and 1/2 inches apart. They do make 4 and 1/2 inch bar clamps that would probably be perfect for this job, but I didn't have one so decided to use two bar clamps, one at each of the round case openings, to squeeze the fork tines toward the openings. When placed in this position, with one jaw on the outside of the circular opening, pressure is exerted on the fork tines several inches up from the control valve cross T which you are attempting to disconnect from, but is still effective at getting the job done. With the control valve T now disconnected, I pushed the valve forward into the pump housing as per repair manual directive, and began removing bolts in preparation for dropping the pump.
mvphoto92178.jpg
 
With all but two bolts removed, and the two remaining ones loosened as much as possible without removal, I tapped on the bottom of the pump to free it from the gasket surface. At this point, the rear of the pump's base plate dropped about an inch while the front end remained high. The repair manual says to move the base plate toward the rear of the tractor in order to drop the pump, so I first placed a jack below the pump base, removed the 2 remaining bolts, and did that. The pump indeed began to drop, but only dropped about 4 inches before binding against the case opening along both the sides.

With at least a partial view of the innards, I could see that the pump cam (item #17 in the exploded pump view seen in one of my previous posts) was laying atop the base plate, so I reached in and pulled that out. This explained why I had heard a clunk when I withdrew the PTO shaft. With the cam removed, I could see that there were some broken pieces of metal, and I fished out the ones I could get at most easily using a magnetic pick-up tool. Below is a picture showing the pieces I had retrieved. The broken item is of course the pump's piston assembly (item #19 in the diagram), which the cam would normally force back and forth in a pumping action by moving the cam block - item 18 - against the sides of the piston assembly framework. That framework appears to be cast iron, which would explain why it shattered easily when ice formed and expanded within it, and with the item being broken of course no pumping action could occur, which solves the riddle as to why the lift was not functioning. I didn't run across the cam block when retrieving the broken pieces, but that must be in there somewhere and may also be broken, as may other parts. As it was getting late in the day, I decided to wait until morning to wrestle with dropping the pump, and I'm about ready to head out to the garage to do that. I wish that Ferguson hadn't sized the case opening in such proportion as to cause such a close fit for the pump that it would bind when being removed, but I'll just have to deal with that as is until I get the pump out.
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This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/16/2022 at 07:56 am.
 
Okay, the pump is out. I figured that the best way to handle dropping the pump, with it binding on the case opening, was to throw a discarded bed pillow under the tractor, go up above, and use a wooden landscape stake and hammer to gently persuade it to fall. I lined up the pointed stake into one of the pump base bolt holes where the base appeared higher than other holes, and gave it one gentle whack with the hammer. The pump fell out onto the pillow quite nicely. After placing the pump on a work table, I dug around to find the remaining broken pieces. As I had suspected, the second piston assembly, which I hadn't been able to get to earlier, was as broken as the first, and so were both of the cam blocks. I removed 30 more pieces today, beyond what I showed in my previous post, and these are seen in a photo below. Also shown is the right side valve chamber, which had broken from the ice pressure. A new valve chamber and overhaul kit are on order, and while waiting for that I'll disassemble and clean the pump, and clean out the portions of the center housing case that I couldn't reach before removing the pump. I'll also grind off a small portion of the case opening to make it easier to lift the pump back into place without binding on anything.

Incidentally, if you look at the lower left corner of the bottom picture showing the many broken pieces, you will see a black piece which somewhat resembles the bottom half of a ball point pen, except that it is solid and semi-rigid. I'm wondering what that might be, as I don't see anything in the pump parts diagram that resembles it. I'm wondering if perhaps it is just a piece that broke off from something someone had used to prod around inside at some point in time. It's definitely not the black portion of item #12 in the pump parts diagram, as that piece is not used on TO-20 tractors. Any ideas?
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This post was edited by Rickoff on 05/28/2022 at 06:43 am.
 
In case you're wondering, no I did not pass away or lose interest in repairing my tractor's hydraulic pump. I decided that I would replace [u:625f25a1a7]both[/u:625f25a1a7] valve chambers with new ones so that I would be assured of obtaining maximum flow and pressure. Unfortunately, after ordering the second chamber and wondering why I hadn't received it yet, YT sent me an e-mail saying they had canceled the order and issued a refund because the chamber was out of stock and currently unavailable. Fortunately, though, I was able to locate one at Steiner Tractor Parts. FedEx tracking says that delivery is supposed to occur today, and I hope they are right. Being without use of the tractor for more than a few days makes life problematical. I realize now that it would have been best to order the comprehensive pump repair kit rather than the overhaul kit, as the comprehensive kit would have included both chambers (unless those are also unavailable, which may be the case). As soon as I finish rebuilding and installing the pump, I will report back on the status of the lift repair.
 
Hydraulic pump rebuild completed, and my lift works great now - better than ever before. So glad to be able to have use of my tractor once again, as there is lots of catching up to be done. Thanks again to all for your suggestions. :D
 

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