oil out of air cleaner

wrgflyfish

New User
I've gotten so much just reading these forums for years and never needed to post. Now I need to. I have a TO30. Last year it started not working right for several reasons. At that time I switched it to electronic ignition and re-did the 12 volt conversion meaning new alternator, switch, coil, and starter. It started right up and I thought great! Well, not so great this spring. This spring when I started her I started getting oil blowing back from the oil bath air filter. Researched things here and decided to remove the head and get the valves redone. They were really bad...the machine shop thought they might be originals. Got that back and did a thorough cleaning of the pistons, valve cover breather, rocker arms...basically anything that was removed got cleaned up. I put it all back together including adjusting the valves to .013 per my manual. Set the static timing to 6 from tdc and it started right up!!! It was sounding great. I thought I might have to adjust the governor since it was removed but it went to idle and back up smooth and nice. I checked the timing with a timing light to make sure it stayed at 6 at idle. Time to actually use it. I hooked up the brush hog and went to the pasture. I got maybe 100 yards in and the oil started coming out the breather again. Under load it just comes out almost constantly. Without load on the engine it runs very well. I read through https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ferg&th=111896. I don't have a hole in my oil bath. A note about the valve job (it shouldn't matter but I'm going to mention it). The shop didn't put on oem valves. The exhaust valves don't have the hole in the top to put the existing lash caps. I did put the intake valve lash caps on and left the exhaust valves without. That would be a long term wear issue not a current running issue I think.

Another thing that shouldn't cause this I mention it...the muffler is not sealed well against the exhaust manifold. The angle of it makes it not seal well so there is some work I need to do there but again I don't think that could cause this.

In that thread there are several things mentioned. One is a sticky valve...is that possible if I just had the valves redone (valves, springs, guides)? I cleaned up the rocker arm and lubed it well. I would think the new springs would over come a rocker unless it was very noticeably stiff.

Another is advanced timing. How would I check that? The engine runs well at fast speeds and at slow unless it is under load. Can it be a timing issue if that is the case? I can upload a video of it running if that is any use.

Thanks!

Wendell
 
Let me see if I can get all the items

1.Try putting a little less oil in the air cleaner bath

2. Do a compression On your engine to see if a valve is leaking

3. I think your governor is not set correctly. The service manual describes how to adjust and I know there are threads here that will do the same.

Hmm. Just to check, make sure your distributor is working properly, remove cap and see if the rotor will move slightly and snap back into place. My friends TO35 had a frozen advance on his and it would not run right. Opened it up and found advance was frozen, we were able to take it apart clean and lube it, works fine. Under the rotor should be a piece of felt or wool that needs to be oiled occasionally

Let us know how you make out

Tom
 
So, where is the oil coming out of the air cleaner?

Is it blowing out the top, or sucking it into the carb?

Or disappearing out of the oil cup?

A couple things come to mind, there is a wire mesh inside the canister that needs periodic cleaning. It is a real bear to get out, but if it is packed with dirt from years of not being cleaned (and most are) it will have to come out. You can buy the replacement mesh here if it tears up. I don't think that would cause oil loss though, but it would cause performance problems, especially under load.

Is it backfiring out the carb under load? A steady backfire, worse under load, is an indication of an exhaust valve not fully opening. Either severely out of adjustment (too loose), a bent pushrod, or a flat cam lobe. You may want to run the valve adjustmant again now that it has some time on it, and retorque the head bolts too. Do that before adjusting the valves. With the cover off you can observe the valves, they should all open the same amount. A flat cam will show as one not fully opening, you can see the difference.

An occasional backfire, especially when bringing the RPM up from idle, indicated too lean on the main jet, or retarded ignition timing. But that should not be enough to blow oil out the air cleaned unless it is over filled.

My 35 was loosing oil out the air filter cup, a visual inspection revealed nothing. Finally it got worse, sure enough a microscopic rust hole in the bottom. They can be difficult to see.
 
So I did the things I could do over lunch break during work from home.

There was already a little less oil than the level specified since it was blowing out. Probably only half way up to the 'oil level' line.

Compression test requires a drive to the parts store...didn't get that done. The machine shop said they tested the valve job after they completed it. Of course that may not be true but I have no reason to doubt them. It is also possible that my valve adjustment was bad and it isn't closing. This will wait a bit.

I followed the manual for adjusting the governor. I didn't read any threads on it but did watch a video on the same to confirm I was understanding correctly. It is actually worse now instead of better. The only adjustment I made was to the idle of the u-bolt adjustment. Everything else checked out. I don't have a way to check the rpms directly. The manual mentions jacking the tractor up but I can't do that.

I also tried to move the rotor. How far should it move? At best I would say it had some play in it but it didn't really move. This one sounds promising? Thinking about just purchasing a new distributor (trading money for time) instead of trying to clean up the existing one.

I also had enough time to fix the angle on the muffler so I got a better connection. That difference also made it worse. I'm guessing that just increased the back pressure. I ran water from a hose down the pipe and muffler to make sure there weren't any wasp nests in there. The water seemed to flow fine.

In both cases worse means it is now blowing out oil when accelerating the engine quickly and also sometimes without load at full throttle.

Advance timing seems the most likely at this point, yes?

Wendell
 
It is blowing out the top. My right leg is oily after only 5 minutes.

The cup was low but not empty but I only ran it a few minutes. Tonight I'll empty it again and put it to a light. I don't think that's it since I can still see paint everywhere but I've learned to check everything somebody tells me to check, even if it means checking it twice.

I checked the mesh. It looks very good but I did clean it last year really well when this first started so would expect it to be clean now yet.

I wouldn't say it is "back firing". There isn't a pop of any sort. It seems like it is just a burst of back pressure. It feels like the exhaust is going that way. (That is a feeling and not fact.) Maybe that is the definition of back firing? I can see the carb butterfly jump every time it happens. I really don't want to remove the gas and the tank again but of course will if I have to.

Question about the flat cam...wouldn't I have seen that when I was first adjusting or perhaps when I was adjusting maybe I "missed" the flat part and got it on either side of that?

How to check for bent push rods? Is rolling them on a flat surface for wobbles good enough? Maybe put a straight edge against them?

Any easy way to make an external fuel supply so I can run this and adjust the valves easily?

Wendell
 
Another question and this might be part of the problem (hinted at above). The manual says to set the valves at .013 and then test again at operating temp. The shop manual says set them to .015 cold and .013 warm. Think that .002 difference is an issue? Am I opening/not closing .002 too fast? I need an external fuel tank of some sort to do this better.
 
On the distributor when you turn the rotor it should move a few degrees, maybe 1/8”, then snap back to original position. If there is no movement than the advance mechanism is frozen. It’s really not that big a job to pull out then tear down clean then put back together and run it. Less time and less costly than buying a new replacement one.

The pic is from the parts manual showing the distributor. You can see how the top is separate from the bottom drive part. That’s where the get stuck from not getting periodic oiling.
cvphoto54345.png
 
wrgflyfish, try taking the muffler completly off the manifold and test the tractor. You may have a plugged up exhaust, due to critters getting in while it set during the winter.
 
I would start with removing the exhaust like Jim said. It could be a restricted muffler.

I don't think there is a leak in the air cleaner cup, as the oil is coming out the top.

A flat exhaust lobe will be a very rhythmic pop back through the carb, worse under load. What happens is the exhaust is not getting out of the cylinder, is still in there burning and expanding when the intake opens, so it blows back out the intake. Pop, pop, pop, pop, every time that cylinder comes around.

And yes, you probably would have seen it while adjusting the valves, depends on what method you used. I turn the engine through while feeling for the loosest point. Some use the "turn the engine to a certain place", set so and so, then "turn it again to another place"... That works, but I just like to take the time to set each one, one at a time.

The lash at .013 or .015 is not that critical. This is not a high tech engine, .002 will make no difference. As long as they are not too tight, and are going through the motions, all is good. Too loose and you will hear it ticking.

As for bent pushrods, I'm talking bent beyond function. As long as they are in place and working a little out of round wont hurt. Spinning them in place is sufficient.

A couple ways to make a temporary gas tank, a surplus lawn mower tank will work, or a plastic oil bottle with a pointy cap, anything you can temporary a hose on safely.

I'm now leaning toward a clogged exhaust though, if only I was there to see it...
 
I had already removed the distributor to clean it before I saw the muffler removal idea so instead of putting it back on I cleaned it up. I'll check the muffler later if the distributor doesn't fix things. It was definitely filthy. I soaked it in pb blaster overnight and then used carb cleaner on it. It was so nice when I heard something go 'clink' because it had freed up. Followup question on it. It now turns the 1/8 inch freely but it really doesn't snap back. I have to turn it back. Think the springs in it are soft? What about lube for it too? Just some WD-40 in there maybe or leave it dry?. I'm sure it will run better the way it is (even if the springs are soft but I was also not able to open the reservoir to put oil it it because the screw head is too bunged up. I'm headed to town to get new screws that I did remove since they are bunged up too.
 
Things aren't better. I removed the muffler after testing with the cleaned distributor and the same thing. I'm linking to a youtube of trying to use it. You can hear the back pressure (popping) from the beginning of it but as soon as the incline goes up and the grass gets heavy I have to stop the mower.

I still haven't compression tested or re-checked the valve settings.

As far as the oil goes...reducing the amount in the bowl has reduced that. I guess that is really a side effect of the underlying back pressure and loss of power issue.

Thanks for everyone's time!

Wendell
popping and loss of power
 
Feeling stupid and more confused than ever now. I did have the firing order wrong because I was going clockwise. I switch up 2 and 3 and now she won't start at all. I have spark at all the plugs. I didn't check the timing again. Maybe I need to do that statically again since I tuned
it while running? I'm going to link to 2 more videos when I had the firing order wrong. One of them is it simply running with the valve cover off. The next is my pulling each spark plug out one by one (which will be a separate post since I can't figure out to do 2 of them). 1 and 4 don't seem to do much to the engine but both 2 and 3 mess it up
greatly...probably because they were switched.

Wendell
Valve Cover off
 
So I checked the static timing and it was still fine. Back to the drawing board I guess. An engine needs gas, compression, and spark. I confirmed with a spark tester that all four have spark. That either leaves gas or compression. I must have both of those somewhere or it wouldn't have started with the wires switched. I guess a compression test is next. Again, thank you to everyone. I'm a handyman type guy and engines are not my forte.
 
To be clear 360 degrees of engine rotation is 180 degrees of distributor rotation, so you would move the distributor 180 degrees to change the relationship one rotation of the crankshaft -
 
That did the starting trick. I still have the external gas tank on or I would test it out right now but it sound smoother so I'm expecting this to fix it. Can you explain 180 degree rotation for me? I turned the flywheel to DC and then checked the rotor to make sure it was on 1. What
did rotating the distributor half way around do? Isn't that the point of DC on the flywheel?

But...thank you thank you thank you!

I won't get it tested tonight but will give an update tomorrow.
 
The 4 cycle engine sparks once every second revolution. TDC occurs on both compression and exhaust strokes. Where you had the distributor set it was firing TDC on the exhaust stroke.
 
Ah, that makes perfect sense. So before when I had 2 and 3 crossed and 180 degrees out I was probably only running on 2 cylinders (somehow). That would explain why when I pulled the wires on 1 and 4 that the engine didn't change but when I pulled 2 or 3 I lost (another) cylinder and it
would have died.

Again, thanks! Can't wait to put that tank back on.
 

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