TE-20 starter motor turning the wrong way

Zander218

New User
Hi everyone! I am doing up my grandfathers tractor and Im now onto trying to fix the starter motor mechanism. As long as my father can remember its always been started with the handle.

So I started off by bridging the terminals under the battery box (the gearstick wont go into the starting gear) and the starter span but didnt engage in the flywheel. So I took the starter off expecting the pinion to be sticky, and thats why it wasnt cranking. How ever it was very free and can push it out with a finger. So I then decided to bench test it. I hooked it up to the battery (6V, positive earth) and tested it. To my surprise it started turning clockwise! It should be turning anti-clockwise. So I thought I must have the wires on wrong so I swapped it to negative earth and it still spun clockwise. So now Im stumped... any ideas what would cause this?
The tractor is a Continental Z120 engine and the starter motor is a Lucas 25519E.

Thanks in advance for any help.
 
My guess is some body repaired the starter and wired it wrong inside.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/reverse-rotation-starter-motor-283320/
 

Starters are not polarity sensitive , that's why you can change a tractor from positive earth to negative earth without too much trouble .
X2 on a faulty repair , or the starter is from another tractor.
 
Lucas... Beware the Dark Side....
Still no effect on the rotation no matter the ground polarity.
Even on the Dark Side.
 
25519E should be correct for TE20 according to part# search.

TE-20 1946-1948
TEA-20 1947-1951
uses
Lucas 25519, 25519A, 25519B, 25519C, 25519D, 25519E, 25519F
Massey Ferguson 829853M91
 
Thanks for that link, it was interesting but they were on about turning the permanent magnets 180 degrees to swap the polarity of the field winding in relation to the armature. Is the starter a permanent magnet? I thought it was an electromagnet inside, if so can the same thing be done? Im starting to think that a faulty repair has been done.
How ever the starter motor is located on the left hand side of the tractor (if your sitting on it) with the pinion end closest to you. The starter then has to turn anti-clockwise (the way it is turning just now when mounted on the tractor, my mistake for saying clockwise in the first post.) This means the the one way clutch is mounted the wrong way which is why it doesnt get thrown out to engage. Because it only gets thrown out when you turn it clockwise?
 
It about has to be a faulty repair, as in someone wired something about the field wrong, or they combined 2 starters to make one.

If it were a true opposite rotation starter, the spiral spline the drive runs on would be opposite pitch.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm still learning about Ferguson's, but I thought the TE-20 used a Standard engine with Lucas electrics and the TO-20 uses the Continental with Delco electrics.
 
(quoted from post at 14:17:01 07/12/20) Hi everyone! I am doing up my grandfathers tractor and Im now onto trying to fix the starter motor mechanism. As long as my father can remember its always been started with the handle.

So I started off by bridging the terminals under the battery box (the gearstick wont go into the starting gear) and the starter span but didnt engage in the flywheel. So I took the starter off expecting the pinion to be sticky, and thats why it wasnt cranking. How ever it was very free and can push it out with a finger. So I then decided to bench test it. I hooked it up to the battery (6V, positive earth) and tested it. To my surprise it started turning clockwise! It should be turning anti-clockwise. So I thought I must have the wires on wrong so I swapped it to negative earth and it still spun clockwise. So now Im stumped... any ideas what would cause this?
The tractor is a Continental Z120 engine and the starter motor is a Lucas 25519E.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Are the sections of the starter dowel pinned so they can only be put together one way?

If NOT and the ungrounded brush leads are long enough so that the brusholder got installed 90 from where it's supposed to be the starter will run backwards.
 
[/quote]

I havent stripped the starter to look but the issue now is that the pinion wont throw out in the right direction not that is it spinning the wrong way. Im looking for a replacement pinion now that throws out when its turned clockwise
 
If starter is turning anti clockwise as you face the drive end then it would turn the engine clockwise if you have a hold of the handle. If you are sitting on the tractor seat the flywheel goes normal direction on anti clockwise.
 
Jim L; the TE-20 also used a Continental engine, but with
Lucas electrics. There were other differences. The TEA-20
used the Standard engine.
 
(quoted from post at 09:51:39 07/13/20) Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm still learning about Ferguson's, but I thought the TE-20 used a Standard engine with Lucas electrics and the TO-20 uses the Continental with Delco electrics.
hat is partly correct. From about 1946 to 1948, all TE20 Fergusons used the Continental engine until the Standard factory got up and running. Around the time the TO20's were being built, the Standard engines started to be installed in TEA20's. For a time, both engines were available. The TE's and TEA's shared the same serial numbers, so they are all in sequence.
 
(quoted from post at 05:32:57 07/14/20)
Are the sections of the starter dowel pinned so they can only be put together one way?

If NOT and the ungrounded brush leads are long enough so that the brusholder got installed 90 from where it's supposed to be the starter will run backwards.[/quote]

I'm confused.

You stated the starter is turning the wrong way, also that the inertial drive won't extend.

If you can correct the starter rotation the drive you have should work properly.

So why are you looking for a drive that extends in the opposite direction?
 
(quoted from post at 05:38:01 07/14/20) If starter is turning anti clockwise as you face the drive end then it would turn the engine clockwise if you have a hold of the handle. If you are sitting on the tractor seat the flywheel goes normal direction on anti clockwise.
Yes thats whats happening just now. The issue Is actually not the direction of the motor but the pinion only gets thrown out to engage when turned anti-clockwise, therefore will never engage being turned clockwise. Is this a case of swapping the pinion round or is a new pinion/armature?
Thanks
 
Tramway and Ron, thank you for the history lesson.
Zander218, which end of the starter is closest to you when you test it? If the front end is closest to you it will appear to turn counter (anti) clockwise, if the rear end is closest to you it will appear to turn clockwise.
 
Hopefully the attachment will help clear everything up. To try and make it less confusing this is what Ive found out, all directions are as if you are sitting on the tractor with the pinion end facing you.
1. Starter is only turning clockwise. The correct rotation to start the tractor.
2. Pinion is only wants to throw out when turned anti-clockwise.
3. I need to get the pinion to throw out in the clockwise direction.

How can I do this?

Thanks for all this help so far theres been plenty to learn from!
 
I think starter was repaired with wrong pinion. Lucas catalogue 1945-1960 lists over 50 pinion parts #s in both RH and LH rotation. What I don't have is application for your 25519 starter.
 
(quoted from post at 17:18:03 07/14/20) I think starter was repaired with wrong pinion. Lucas catalogue 1945-1960 lists over 50 pinion parts #s in both RH and LH rotation. What I don't have is application for your 25519 starter.
Yes I agree, why someone would put a starter that doesnt work on, who knows. Is this parts catalogue an online one?
 
Yes online, Look for Lucas Master Parts Catalog 400E - 1945-1960
MGA guru dot com has it available free, Section N for starters. It does not list tractors, if you find Lucas tractor catalogue that would be great.
 
Yes online, Look for Lucas Master Parts Catalog 400E - 1945-1960
MGA guru dot com has it available free, Section N for starters. It does not list tractors, if you find Lucas tractor catalogue that would be great.
 
That's crazy isn't it? It sounds like it's been like that for years. It would be interesting to know the story. Hope you get the correct parts and get it working like it should.
 
(quoted from post at 07:13:27 07/15/20) That's crazy isn't it? It sounds like it's been like that for years. It would be interesting to know the story. Hope you get the correct parts and get it working like it should.
The earliest record of my family having it, is 1956 and my dad was always told the starter never worked so its been wrong for at least 64 years!
Im sending it to a guy who used to work for Lucas and he said hell have a look and get the bits it needs so fingers crossed.
 

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