Motor won t turn over

Robshave

New User
Was running just fine...turned off and engine seemed to slow down a little quicker than usual...not much. Went to restart 10 mins later and starter engages but won t turn engine over. Seemed like dead battery, but strange I was just using to stop and start multiple times. Boosted battery with truck and same result. Like engine is seized, starter makes noise like it is engaged but no movement. Dragged tractor behind truck with chain, popped clutch in 4th gear a few times, wheels locked and dragged gravel...engine won t turn over. Check oil, half way up on dipstick. What has happened?
 
Pull the plugs and see if it turns over,could be hydraulic lock in the cylinders if you had a head gasket leak.
 
(quoted from post at 19:42:38 05/27/19) Pull the plugs and see if it turns over,could be hydraulic lock in the cylinders if you had a head gasket leak.
Tried that. Plugs dry. No difference. Squirted 20 squirts of transmission fluid into each cylinder. Letting it sit for 3 weeks until I m back at property again.
 
Try removing the starter. It may be broken or jammed in the flywheel.

If that's not the problem, try reaching in the starter hole with a prybar, see if the engine will turn, see if it will turn backward.

If it is stuck tight with no movement at all, sounds like a bearing seizure.

If the flywheel will turn ever so slightly, possibly a seized cylinder. Not likely though unless it overheated.

If it will turn backward, could be liquid locked cylinder, dropped valve, or something is mechanically jamming it. Iould be internal or something in the bell housing, or in the front cover, governor weight in the gears/chain.
 
The governor weights are known to fail and jam in the Timing Chain...

If indeed the timing chain is Jammed due to a Governor weight failing, and you keep DRAGGNG the Tractor in GEAR....and if the chain fails then .....$$$$$$...once pistons strike the VALVES.......$$$$$


Bob...Owner operator Ferguson TEA-20...
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(quoted from post at 03:39:37 05/28/19) The governor weights are known to fail and jam in the Timing Chain...

If indeed the timing chain is Jammed due to a Governor weight failing, and you keep DRAGGNG the Tractor in GEAR....and if the chain fails then .....$$$$$$...once pistons strike the VALVES.......$$$$$


Bob...Owner operator Ferguson TEA-20...
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You guys are the best! Let me try all those ideas and I ll report back with the results. Can t thank you enough for the ideas!
 
(quoted from post at 11:32:41 05/28/19)
(quoted from post at 03:39:37 05/28/19) The governor weights are known to fail and jam in the Timing Chain...

If indeed the timing chain is Jammed due to a Governor weight failing, and you keep DRAGGNG the Tractor in GEAR....and if the chain fails then .....$$$$$$...once pistons strike the VALVES.......$$$$$


Bob...Owner operator Ferguson TEA-20...
<img src="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto24586.jpg">

<img src="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto24587.png">

Ok, I tried your ideas just now. Was hoping you would still be interested in helping me.

I removed the starter and found I could turn the engine backwards by just pushing the fan blades. With all plugs out it turned really easily. But, when I tried to move forward I would go about 1/10 or even less of a rotation forward easily but then it would bind and I couldn t turn even with a pry bar on the flywheel ring gear. Turn backwards again as much as I want but if I stop and then try to go forward it binds the same way, no matter where I stop on my backward rotation.

Now, after spinning backwards for a good 5-6 rotations it s now binding backwards too. Will move forward for 1/8 turn and bind, backwards for 1/8 turn and bind. No odd noises, bumps, etc., just a smooth bind.

Any ideas what I might try next? Thanks a lot guys!

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You guys are the best! Let me try all those ideas and I ll report back with the results. Can t thank you enough for the ideas!
 

Ok, I tried your ideas just now. Was hoping you would still be interested in helping me.

I removed the starter and found I could turn the engine backwards by just pushing the fan blades. With all plugs out it turned really easily. But, when I tried to move forward I would go about 1/10 or even less of a rotation forward easily but then it would bind and I couldn t turn even with a pry bar on the flywheel ring gear. Turn backwards again as much as I want but if I stop and then try to go forward it binds the same way, no matter where I stop on my backward rotation.

Now, after spinning backwards for a good 5-6 rotations it s now binding backwards too. Will move forward for 1/8 turn and bind, backwards for 1/8 turn and bind. No odd noises, bumps, etc., just a smooth bind.

Any ideas what I might try next? Thanks a lot guys!
 
Remove front end until you see your Timing arrangement as per picture...get back to the "YT" group and tell us what you see?

Dragging this Tractor in gear and letting out the clutch has caused you a problem:


Bob...Owner operator TEA-20
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(quoted from post at 20:58:48 06/08/19) Remove front end until you see your Timing arrangement as per picture...get back to the "YT" group and tell us what you see?

Dragging this Tractor in gear and letting out the clutch has caused you a problem:


Bob...Owner operator TEA-20
<img src="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto25728.jpg">

Gosh, I m not that tech savvy to remove front axle and pull the front of engine off. I would have to trailer the tractor to someone with ability to open that up. Not sure if the money to ask someone to look inside is worth it? I can get another used Ferguson for $1500. Might I be better off to go that route? How fixable might my tractor be in reality? Super hard to speculate, I know, but any educated guesses?
 
With Distributor CAP REMOVED turn Crankshaft CCW (counter clock wise) and then CW. (clock wise)Turn Crankshaft only enough to verify how many TEETH on the Flywheel move past the STARTER mounting BOSS before the ROTOR / Distributor drive moves?

Estimate the number of degrees the crankshaft has to turn before the Distributor drive moves:

eg. Flywheel =360deg /145 Teeth= 2.48 deg per Tooth

eg. 10 teeth 25deg..............4 teeth 10 deg

You are checking the condition of the Timing Chain, and drive sprockets.

I've lost track of how many Timing Chain, drive sprockets and Governor fly weight assemblies I have seen and replaced that had

I had a situation were the Engine would NOT return to ideal until the throttle was forced towards min speed. The Governor weights were ready to fall off/detach from the holding pins. I rotated the crankshaft CW/CCW and noticed 4 > 6 TEETH on the FLYWHEEL had to move past a reference point before the DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR would move. Now only one tooth on the flywheel will pass before the Rotor moves. The governor was sticking at full throttle and would not idle down. Cheers:


Bob....
 
(quoted from post at 11:38:38 06/09/19) With Distributor CAP REMOVED turn Crankshaft CCW (counter clock wise) and then CW. (clock wise)Turn Crankshaft only enough to verify how many TEETH on the Flywheel move past the STARTER mounting BOSS before the ROTOR / Distributor drive moves?

Estimate the number of degrees the crankshaft has to turn before the Distributor drive moves:

eg. Flywheel =360deg /145 Teeth= 2.48 deg per Tooth

eg. 10 teeth 25deg..............4 teeth 10 deg

You are checking the condition of the Timing Chain, and drive sprockets.

I've lost track of how many Timing Chain, drive sprockets and Governor fly weight assemblies I have seen and replaced that had

I had a situation were the Engine would NOT return to ideal until the throttle was forced towards min speed. The Governor weights were ready to fall off/detach from the holding pins. I rotated the crankshaft CW/CCW and noticed 4 > 6 TEETH on the FLYWHEEL had to move past a reference point before the DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR would move. Now only one tooth on the flywheel will pass before the Rotor moves. The governor was sticking at full throttle and would not idle down. Cheers:


Bob....

Thanks for idea. Ran out of time at cabin where tractor is. Just there for weekend. Back up again in 2 weeks. Will try then and post my findings. Thanks very much!

Rob
 
(quoted from post at 18:53:39 06/12/19)
(quoted from post at 11:38:38 06/09/19) With Distributor CAP REMOVED turn Crankshaft CCW (counter clock wise) and then CW. (clock wise)Turn Crankshaft only enough to verify how many TEETH on the Flywheel move past the STARTER mounting BOSS before the ROTOR / Distributor drive moves?

Estimate the number of degrees the crankshaft has to turn before the Distributor drive moves:

eg. Flywheel =360deg /145 Teeth= 2.48 deg per Tooth

eg. 10 teeth 25deg..............4 teeth 10 deg


Ok, got brave with your suggestions and striped front of tractor off and removed timing chain cover. Shocked myself I could actually do that! Found one governor weight sitting on chain wedged in timing gear. An
You are checking the condition of the Timing Chain, and drive sprockets.

I've lost track of how many Timing Chain, drive sprockets and Governor fly weight assemblies I have seen and replaced that had

I had a situation were the Engine would NOT return to ideal until the throttle was forced towards min speed. The Governor weights were ready to fall off/detach from the holding pins. I rotated the crankshaft CW/CCW and noticed 4 > 6 TEETH on the FLYWHEEL had to move past a reference point before the DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR would move. Now only one tooth on the flywheel will pass before the Rotor moves. The governor was sticking at full throttle and would not idle down. Cheers:


Bob....

Thanks for idea. Ran out of time at cabin where tractor is. Just there for weekend. Back up again in 2 weeks. Will try then and post my findings. Thanks very much!

Rob
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Ok, took your advice one stripped front of tractor down to timing chain case and removed. Impressed myself I could actually do that! Found governor weight sitting on chain, wedged between sprocket and chain. Stopping rotation of crankshaft. One other weight looks like it s ready to fall off too.

What now? I m in Toronto, Ontario, Canada and yesterday s tractors doesn t ship to Canada.
 
Well done Robshave...?...:)

I was about to sit a six hour exam "Power Engineering"...?I could hear my Instructor reiterating?."be sure to READ the questions and then and only then through out the nonrelevant information!"

Glad to see you read everyone's contribution to your challenge, and systematically discovered the little beasts weak spot!

A service manual is a must!.....a parts Book is also a must!

As your engine was conceived by British parents.....you have a "Standard Engine".

Here's some info I kept from my last Timing Chain and associated parts change out:


Info I compiled when REPLACING Crank sprocket ,Cam sprocket and Timing Chain.
(1) 85 MM Bore Engine:

(2) Front Lip Oil Seal "National /Federal Mogul Lip Seal" # 472164V A SMALL amount of BLUE Silicone was placed around the inside bore of the front timing chain cover before Lip seal was installed:

(3) I installed a repair SLEEVE on the front drive Pulley, make "DURA SLEEVE" # 99175. The sealing area were the LIP SEAL makes contact was slightly grooved. Dura Sleeve specs. 1.745">1.753" Diam. # 68 Rockwell Hardness:

(4) On installation the Governor plunger shall be reseeded tight against the Flyweights and no weights shall be loose or hanging down:

(5) A small amount (only enough to make the surface shiny) of engine oil was added to the shaft of the governor PLUNGER as well as the timing chain:

(6)There are / was NO timing Marks on the NEW Sprockets. You may wish to line the timing marks up (facing each other) before you remove the sprockets:

(7)Place the old sprocket (CAM SPROCKET) on top of the new sprockets and accurately scribe the new sprockets as to the timing marks. There are FOUR holes in the hub of the CAM SPROCKET. Keep turning the old sprocket until the four holes and all teeth line up. These holes are slightly off set. I used several SHOULDERED cap screws to ensure I had the new and old sprockets properly aligned. You may have to flip the old sprocket over...see right up:

(8) It's good practice to measure the thickness of the hub of the old crankshaft sprocket and the new crankshaft sprocket as the teeth on the two sprockets should align for both proper operation and longevity.(there were shims between the old Crankshaft sprocket and the shoulder portion of the crankshaft):

Cheers
Bob..

There shall be others who shall assist you as to a parts supplier as I'm from North Western Alberta.

Diamond Farm Tractor Parts ..Ont. Canada may be able to assist you?

When ordering Parts / Components you should consider having the Make, Model, Serial # of Tractor and the Fact your Engine is "STANDARD ENGINE "made in the British Isles.

Pics. as to explain how I checked the correct placement of the Camshaft sprocket, and the Crankshaft Sprocket:

The last three sets of sprockets did NOT have any timing marks scribed on the sprockets:
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Or you could find someone on the border and have them run to their shipping place in the US to pick it up and ship it to you. Not terribly convenient but if you can not source the part in Canada it's better than nothing.
I just happen to have such ability, I'm on the Canadian side of the border with Minnesota and have a shipping address in the US. I would be willing to help out if necessary and I order from YT quite often.
 
(quoted from post at 14:45:25 07/25/19) Or you could find someone on the border and have them run to their shipping place in the US to pick it up and ship it to you. Not terribly convenient but if you can not source the part in Canada it's better than nothing.
I just happen to have such ability, I'm on the Canadian side of the border with Minnesota and have a shipping address in the US. I would be willing to help out if necessary and I order from YT quite often.

Wow, great offer! Thank-you. Let me look for another day or 2 and if I can t find a supplier I will contact you again early next week. Thanks again!
 

Wow John, I cant thank you enough for the time you have invested for me to reply and post all those pics. You are a saint!

Super helpful stuff, especially for a weekend tinkerer like me.

At this point I m so damn impressed I got all that stuff off and down to timing cover, without breaking anything, that I think I had better count my blessings and get this rig back together with as little further tear down or replacement as possible.

Question #1: It looks to me a new set of governor weights like the picture below from YT would be all I need? I presume I just remove the 4 bolts holding the 4 weight brackets against the camshaft gear is all I need to remove?

Question #2: Feels like the governor bell is spring loaded and pushing out against the weights? Am I just imagining that? Watch I don t lose the spring or bell I guess?

Question #3: Will the new weights just hook around the underside of the bell like the old weights did?

Question #4: I also wonder how long those weights were broken or not working...I never use this tractor for any heavy work jobs, etc. But whenever I went for a little ride down the road and went up a small hill I would have to add a bit of throttle to keep the rpms up. I wonder if governor was working at all...If I have trouble getting a new part, can I remove the 2 bad weights and their brackets and go with 2 weights opposite each other?

Sorry, lots of questions still. I never would have tried this repair without all your help. Thanks for your continued support!

Rob
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Quote:

Question #1: It looks to me a new set of governor weights like the picture below from YT would be all I need?

NOTE.. NO....The Gov. Weights Usually are the early indication that the entire Timing Chain, Sprockets, Gov. Weights & assembly are about to cost you big $$$$'s . When the Chain Jumps or fails you shall have big $$$'s to spend when and if PISTONS collide with VALVES!
You have Stretched and weakened the CHAIN when you were trying to free the engine by PULLING the TRACTOR......:(
The distance from one tooth point/ crown to the next tooth point/ crown on a sprocket is known as "PITCH". The PITCH of the SPROCKETS MUST be the same as the PITCH of the CHAIN...IE....would you try wearing/ walking in size 10 shoes on a size 6 foot?....no:

Question #2: Feels like the governor bell is spring loaded and pushing out against the weights? Am I just imagining that? Watch I don t lose the spring or bell I guess?

NOTE....NO Spring that I have ever seen or ever seen on a parts list...

Question #3: Will the new weights just hook around the underside of the bell like the old weights did?

NOTE....YES....

Question #4: I also wonder how long those weights were broken or not working...I never use this tractor for any heavy work jobs, etc. But whenever I went for a little ride down the road and went up a small hill I would have to add a bit of throttle to keep the rpms up. I wonder if governor was working at all...If I have trouble getting a new part, can I remove the 2 bad weights and their brackets and go with 2 weights opposite each other?

NOTE......Weights were on thin ICE....Ticking time bomb...Russian Roulette.... What ever religious choice you follow continue....

NOTE.....NO.. I would never for any reason attach new weights to the OLD backing plate......a norther Russian Roulette

Sorry, lots of questions still. I never would have tried this repair without all your help. Thanks for your continued support!

Rob
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Try the below exercise and get back to the "YT" group:
With Distributor CAP REMOVED and STARTER..turn Crankshaft CCW (counter clock wise) and then CW. (clock wise)Turn Crankshaft only enough to verify how many TEETH on the Flywheel move past the STARTER mounting BOSS before the ROTOR / Distributor drive moves?
Estimate the number of degrees the crankshaft has to turn before the Distributor drive moves:

eg. Flywheel =360deg /145 Teeth= 2.48 deg per Tooth

eg. 10 teeth 25deg..............4 teeth 10 deg

You are checking the condition of the Timing Chain, and drive sprockets.

I've lost track of how many Timing Chain, drive sprockets and Governor fly weight assemblies I have seen and replaced that had

I had a situation were the Engine would NOT return to ideal until the throttle was forced towards min speed. The Governor weights were ready to fall off/detach from the holding pins. I rotated the crankshaft CW/CCW and noticed 4 > 6 TEETH on the FLYWHEEL had to move past a reference point before the DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR would move. Now only one tooth on the flywheel will pass before the Rotor moves. The governor was sticking at full throttle and would not idle down.

Cheers:

Bob...
 
NOTE The Cam Sprocket is NOT indexed to the CAMSHAFT...The SPROCKET can be attached to the CAMSHAFT in "8" different positions.....

If and when you replace the Cam Sprocket.....be sure to "punch mark" the "Cam Sprocket" also, with the same punch placed in the unused " hole in the Sprocket" punch the Camshaft"

There is a procedure in the FERGUSON TEA-20 Manual as to attached SPROCKET if you do not do the above....however good luck at purchasing an original TEA-20 SERVICE MANUAL...I do own such a Manual...?.Trust me...punch the Cam Sprocket and Camshaft before you remove the sprocket from the Camshaft:


Note PICTURE.....

Bob.....
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As your Engine is a 4 Stroke Engine.. "Intake".. "Compression"... "Power".. "Exhaust".. the Camshaft rotates ONCE for every TWO revolutions of the Crankshaft.(Camshaft rotates at 1/2 the RPM of the Crankshaft)

I mention the above, as you should consider aligning the timing marks facing each other, the Cam Sprocket and Crank Sprocket before you remove them..


Bob....Owner TEA-20 Ferguson Standard Engine...

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(quoted from post at 12:52:26 07/26/19) As your Engine is a 4 Stroke Engine.. "Intake".. "Compression"... "Power".. "Exhaust".. the Camshaft rotates ONCE for every TWO revolutions of the Crankshaft.(Camshaft rotates at 1/2 the RPM of the Crankshaft)

I mention the above, as you should consider aligning the timing marks facing each other, the Cam Sprocket and Crank Sprocket before you remove them..


Bob....Owner TEA-20 Ferguson Standard Engine...

<img src="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto31031.jpg">

Hi again. I tried to measure the chain deflection. What I did was turn the crank shaft counter clockwise to tighten the chain on one side and then I pressed the chain on the opposite side to make it move as much as I could. What I noticed was I could deflect the chain a maximum of 7/8 of an inch from one side to the other.

I also tried rotating the crankshaft counterclockwise (standing in front of tractor looking at engine) and I marked a tooth of the flywheel and rotated the flywheel clockwise until I saw the camshaft gear start to turn. Three or maybe 3 1/2 teeth moved past my marked point.

I tried the same exercise but watched the rotor under the distributor cap and even though the camshaft gear was turning the rotor took another six teeth before it started to move. Somehow that doesn t make sense to me. Maybe I did something wrong?

Regardless, I looked at trying to take off the timing gear on the crankshaft and I don t have the correct tools to do such. I tried prying with a metal bar gently and it doesn t appear like that gear wants to move at all. I inspected the chain and all the links and the sprockets both crankshaft and camshaft and I can t find any evidence of damage anywhere. No wear or other obvious visual marks.
 

I had success ordering a new governor set of weights from the diamond tractor supply out west as you suggested. $78 plus shipping and it should arrive sometime next week.
 
(quoted from post at 12:52:26 07/26/19) As your Engine is a 4 Stroke Engine.. "Intake".. "Compression"... "Power".. "Exhaust".. the Camshaft rotates ONCE for every TWO revolutions of the Crankshaft.(Camshaft rotates at 1/2 the RPM of the Crankshaft)

I mention the above, as you should consider aligning the timing marks facing each other, the Cam Sprocket and Crank Sprocket before you remove them..


Bob....Owner TEA-20 Ferguson Standard Engine...

<img src="https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto31031.jpg">

Well Bob, part arrived (doesn t look quite as well made as the original, with crimped pins holding weights on), installed, everything back together, flipped the switch, lights across the county dimmed and lightning bolts flashed (ha!) and sure enough she fired up. Throttle seems to work good, engine doesn t race, seems to hold under load. Who would have thought I could do all that! Lol. Thanks to your help I did!

Changed the oil and filter while is was out there today. 20W50 and I notice now that oil pressure is around 50psi while 1/3-1/2 throttle and hot, and at idle it drops to 15-20. This is different than before as the max psi (when warmed up) was 25 and idle dropped below 10. Is that all good?
 
(quoted from post at 21:42:32 08/01/19) Well done Robshave????.:)

May I aske what all components did you change and or replace...?

Bob....

Just replaced the old governor weight ring. Everything else looked damage free.
 

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