farmall 450 to MTA

460anger · Dec 25, 2011

This is an MTA I'm building out of a 450. Bought the 450. Had new radiator, new TA, new main clutch, and new rims. But all the hydraulic system leaked like a sieve. And I don't really care for that body style. This is about the 4th and last one I'm doing. Usually use Z casting 400's, but this one I'm keeping, as it has the 281, and runs like a top. Got almost everything done, other than cutting the fill neck down on the radiator. Here's a couple pictures of the progress. The MTA stuff and other stuff was left over from many scrapped out tractors. Going to start on the hydraulic system, I like the way a couple of you guys used different valves. I'm just going to use the hydraulic tank for oil, as the valve part is screwed up.

E V Ward · Dec 25, 2011

Not trying to get nitpicky but thats not a SMTA grill.

D Slater · Dec 25, 2011

Could be fooled looking at a picture but looks like you made the frame rails shorter to get a M,SM hood and some other M size parts to work with that upper bolster. Need to watch the clutch T/A adjustments when using a SMTA clutch pedal with 450 parts. Compare the rod operating hole in the SM or 400 pedal with the 450 one. Also the T/A clutch shaft and lever lengths. May have to compensate on adjustments. Good luck with the project.

460anger · Dec 25, 2011

yes i did shorten the frame rails.No all about the adjustments. Rebuilt enough ta"s think i can do it in my sleep. Yes not the right grill really do not care for the mta grills but thanks for the comments. I use what i have at the time. thanks again

460anger · Dec 25, 2011

Run in to a problem today with it.The front steering shaft out of a md will not screw into the top bolster the 450 had power steering. I sold that. Thought i used m ones before??? The 450 has the full circle gear not sure whats going on? Going looking for one out of a non power steering 400 that i junked out but got dark on me and had to go to the in laws for dinner.Maybe tomorow get back on it.

D Slater · Dec 25, 2011

MD should screw in since its the same as a non power steering 450 and there's no difference in the bolster or circle gear for both steering types. But it will be to long with the short frame rails you need a M gas one. Most center steering shaft support brackets are worn so much it doesn't matter, but a M gas and a SMTA is a little different. Because the angle of steering shaft and extra lenght make it higher when it gets back there. M, SM steering support works for the short rails if the right length was removed.

Wardner · Dec 25, 2011

Here are two valve setups on two different and genuine SMTA's with early Fast Hitches. One has a 400 rear frame lid and the other is stock.

You probably aren't running the unique SMTA lid. Must have fitted later shifting forks to a M or SM lid. As I remember, the rail retainers have to be slightly modified.

<a href="http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r16/Wardner/?action=view&current=MTAFasthitch006.jpg" target="_blank">

MTAFasthitch006.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket

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<a href="http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r16/Wardner/?action=view&current=MTAFasthitch005.jpg" target="_blank">

MTAFasthitch005.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket

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mike1972chev · Dec 25, 2011

I know M,Super M,Super M TA and 400 ALL have different fame rails.None of them share the same frame rails.

460anger · Dec 25, 2011

Thats what i thought to I took the center support out so it is just the shaft. starts in but once it gets to the front bearing it binds up and starts chipping the front of the worm gear. even tried two other shafts and bearings. got the top cover off looking in but still can not see whats happening? New one to me. Was hoping to get one that was to long that way i could cut it off and re key it and but a bushing in the support.

460anger · Dec 25, 2011

Thanks wardner was hoping you would post some pictures. I want to put mine under the gas tank where the 450 tool box would of been.Getting back in to some lite farming so this is going to be my big horse. We quit dairy farming in 1980 are big tractor was a super mta hard to believe buy the size of tractors today.Always had a soft spot for the mta

Wardner · Dec 25, 2011

I had some doubts after I typed and posted the word "unique" above. Checked parts book TC-46 and it appears that both the SM and SMTA use the same 8550 DJX lid.

D Slater · Dec 25, 2011

Mike hope you don't think this is picking on you. Just want to correct information. All those tractors have the same length rails. There's several different rail numbers and some are drilled or made a little different but several of the tractors have the same frame rails.
Only change in tractor length from M to 450 from vertical steering shaft to rear of the engine was made in the upper bolsters. MD, SMD, SMTA to 450 gas and diesel are the same length from vertical steering shaft to rear of the engine. M and SM non diesel are the other length.

460anger · Dec 25, 2011

It is a mta lid last one i have. So this will be the last conversion. bought up a bunch of mta stuff couple years ago when scrap was down.

D Slater · Dec 25, 2011

Wardner I always wondered why they didn't update the trans cover numbers. All SMTA and part of the SM tractors with a regular top have a 6 digit # ending in R3 that I know of. Some late M tractors already had the 6 digit # ending in R1.
Must have made a lot of covers from july and after in 1953 since they are found on some SMTA tractors. Of coarse a lot have 54 date codes also. Shift forks are a one of a kind for a SMTA though.
Need to get the posting a lot out of my system this year. My goal for the new year is less time looking and posting or hogging the board.

Wardner · Dec 25, 2011

Dave,

No need to worry about hogging the board. You are one of the reasons I come here and I appreciate your presence. Your knowledge base is amazing.

OTOH, there are good reasons to leave the board when I consider the repetitive grief directed at me when I bring up a valid subject such as Marty. He is the single largest tractor parts purveyor on eBay. 628 auctions this week.

sflem849 · Dec 25, 2011

(quoted from post at 15:52:48 12/25/11) Not trying to get nitpicky but thats not a SMTA grill.

Not trying to nitpick, but it wouldn't matter if he did have the SMTA grill. I don't think the cultivator mounts would be behind those two big holes anyhow.

Wardner · Dec 25, 2011

sflem,

<a href="http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r16/Wardner/?action=view&current=400173.jpg" target="_blank">

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This is the bracket. It will fit that 450 bolster.

I'm surprised that someone hasn't made a patch to convert a M - SM grill to SMTA. Sell it without the hole so it is appropriate for the even rarer late SM grill.

Yes, I know that OEM formally reproduced the SMTA grill.

mike1972chev · Dec 26, 2011

No sir,I didnt think you are pickin on me at all.

I dont think it is a length issue,but where they bolt to the bell housing area is is different.I know my Super is different than a standard M because of the different bell housing for the 12" clutch.(part #s are all different on the Case/IH websight also.)

D Slater · Dec 26, 2011

Mike check the steel plate that goes on the rear of the engine. You will find the same plate on a M and SM. Frame rail bolts pass through plate into clutch housing. Same bolt pattern for gas engine.
Clutch housings were the same number on M and stage one SM with the same suffix on a lot of M tractors. both 11 and 12 inch clutches were used in the housings.
Late parts books show the same clutch housing used as a replacement for all M and SM gas and diesel. Its the housing used on stage 2 SM tractors. You will see they listed a different starter nose to be used on the previous starters when the housing was used on M or stage 1 SM.
No frame rail change was needed because there the same bolt pattern.
If you look in the post about depressed below, find the information I showed scotc. You will see where the late clutch housing was going to be used as a replacement when old stock was used up.
Bolt hole placement for early and late engine mounts and diesel, wide front holes drilled or not and other things, several diesel ones with different bends or not for clearing engine parts was the only difference in rails. Biggest percent will work for another up to 450.

mike1972chev · Dec 26, 2011

I am going off of part #s listed on Case/IH websight.Those framerails,they are all different numbers,right and left side.

BTW I know where the SM TA's length changes is at the beginning of the transmission housing,not the frame rails.

mike1972chev · Dec 26, 2011

I know mine is a 3 bolt starter housing, different than a 2 bolt bell housing.

460anger · Dec 26, 2011

I have done that. Cut the center out of a junk mta grill and tig welded it in a m grill. I have one left to do yet was going to use it on this tractor. not sure yet i do have a couple of thous cult brackets laying around. If i could find a set of 4 row cults. Maybe it would do it.

D Slater · Dec 26, 2011

Late part numbers for most regular M and all regular SM non diesel are the same part # frame rail if compared to the same side. SMTA to 450 non diesel are the same part #. Think the only reason the SMTA up is a different # is because they started having the holes drilled to mount a late wide front and I think the holes to mount the dust shield under the crankshaft pulley are in a little different place.
I agree you can find a lot of rails with small differences and different part numbers over the years or in the same year. Don't think one place made them all.
I have a 50 model M with 2 bolt clutch housing and 400 frame rails mounted because they were in better shape with no problems. Also have a 12 inch clutch in it. M belly reservoir ending in casting DD or lower won't clear the 12 inch clutch. Since reservoir was already gutted to use as a live hydraulic one and I was using no side openings I made 1/2 thick metal spacer plates to go between it and the housing for clearing. Maybe you can see the spacer in the picture.

sflem849 · Dec 26, 2011

(quoted from post at 21:53:28 12/25/11) sflem,

This is the bracket. It will fit that 450 bolster.

I'm surprised that someone hasn't made a patch to convert a M - SM grill to SMTA. Sell it without the hole so it is appropriate for the even rarer late SM grill.

Yes, I know that OEM formally reproduced the SMTA grill.

Thanks Wardner. I haven't had the grill of my SMTA to date. That's my only "nice" tractor. It still doesn't look all that great or have a good TA.

Here's a picture of it just for fun.

DRCA · Dec 26, 2011

Whooooeeee----and all this because you bought some scrap???????

Old-F20 · Dec 26, 2011

guess i dont really get all of it. to me a 450 is a 450 and an MTA is an MTA. you cant build an MTA out of 450 parts. to me it seems your just wreckin a 450 to build a 'put together' parts tractor

why not just leave it a 450??

460anger · Dec 26, 2011

I don't care for the body style of the 400 450. The hydraulics always leaking. Each to their own. When I bought the 450, I bought all that Super M sheet metal plus a whole lot more parts for M and super M's. Wish I would've got there a week earlier, cause there was a whole lot more they junked. Used to buy, sell and scrap about everyday. But now everybody and their brother is doing it so I slowed down quite a bit.

The Dukester · Dec 26, 2011

Might not make a difference, but my Stage II Super M had the single bend gearshift lever not the double bend lever like you tractor has. As I understand it the single bend lever was used on Stage II Super M's and Super MTA's because the double bend lever used on late M's and Stage I Super M's comes real close to the battery box when the tractor is shifted in 3rd or 5th gear.

CNKS · Dec 26, 2011

Dave, you aren't hogging the board, you and Jim Becker on the small tractors have provided a world of info--keep it up.

Hill-Billy Rock-Star · Dec 26, 2011

Ive thought about it myself. I even talked with Dan Steiner at Steiner's tractor parts about it. He was the only parts supplier that showed any interest in buying them. Can't see spending $3500 on a die to only make 250 parts. And thats was all Dan was willing to buy till he sold out of them. Makes it easy to turn a $150 grill into a $400 grill. Anyone ever wonder if they only built SMTA's for 1 year how you see so many at tractor shows now?

Hill-Billy Rock-Star · Dec 26, 2011

Ive done it with the bar's of the grill made 1 good grill out of 2 junk grills Id bet after paint know one would ever know. Guess 2 years of autobody in high school was good for something.

mkirsch · Dec 27, 2011

Anyone ever wonder if they only built SMTA's for 1 year how you see so many at tractor shows now?

Nope, never wondered for a second.

There's a lot of parts and work to make a good "Hollywood" SMTA. If it were easy, I'd be right there with you saying that there are probably a lot of "replicas," "fakes," or whatever you want to call them...

The SMTA has been "collectible" since long before collecting tractors got big. Frankly, I think farmers knew they had something special when they got one back in 1954.

There were 26000 to 27000 SMTAs made. I think an extraordinary number of them survived.

mkirsch · Dec 27, 2011

There it is... I was wondering how long this thread was going to go on with everyone being so encouraging and accepting of this idea.

Duanes · Dec 27, 2011

What a waste!

460anger · Dec 27, 2011

Just like everything else... everyone has their own opinion. I'm not claiming it to be a true MTA. It's the tractor I want and will use. So, if you don't like it, crawl back under your rock. But for you other guys, my uncle was doing some of this stuff back in the 50's. Here is a picture of his super m, now 400 and H, now 300. He was an old crow, loved his chrome!!

farmall 450 to MTA

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