H would not start

There has been much discussion of 6V versus 12V on starting. I was getting cocky about starting the H on 12V, but can now tell you that a 12V won"t start any better with a bad battery. The 12V does allow you to run the timing a little more advanced and still start when hot, but also hurts starting when the battery is bad. I guess it is time for a new battery.

Doesn't matter what voltage the battery is if it is dead it will not start a tractor, car, truck or for that matter any thing. Plus if you have one with a distributor your 100% dead in the water and slowly going south because you don't have a paddle

I surely wouldn't want to go south now, as it is colder there than it is up here in the greater NW.Rich enjoy your cool weather. LOL

Why would you want to run the timing "a little more advanced." IH spent a fortune hiring engineers to determine optimum timing and you know so much more than they do!

Advanced timing is a hot rodders trick to get a little =more HP out of an engine Show how much you don't know or understand about engines and ways to get a tad bit more with out doing much. Common trick used on car and truck engines for decades and it is a super cheap way to get better performance

It is so comforting to know that you are so much wiser than the manufacturer's engineers are about timing specifications. A tractor is not a "hot rod" and if run under load with excess timing can burn a piston. I would imagine you also know more about medicine than doctors.

Funny been doing the timing thing for decades on all sorts of engines. Lawn mower which you can not do much to motorcycles which you can have real fun with and cars and trucks now for 40 plus years and still have not burned a hole in a piston yet. Spec are ok but they are not set up for max they are set up for day in day out driving for the common man so get a clue. How do you think racers do things and even tractor pullers so as to get the most out of an engine. Engineers do things at a spec not to get 100% max but to get something that will work fine for the common man. Sorry but you don't have a clue but head

I'm with Old. My dad taught me that method of timing on my '60 VW , and that's the only way I've ever timed an engine, Advance it 'til it pings under load , then back it off 'til it doesn't.

Yep it is cold down here 5 days not above freezing and the wind has not stopped blowing. Today could be tying the record set in 1977 and 1918 for 6 days in a row below freezing. There is stil alot of snow here in Western NC also. I guess the global warming guys will have a answer for this cold weather.
I know from when I had a job traveling to the rest of the country this is nothing for alot of you guys but here its a real pain. Stay warm.

Try hand crankin it. Works even when the batt wont turn engine over.
choke on, ignition off, 2 revs. then 1/2 choke, ignition on and a 1/2 crank and she fires. It works even below freezing (I was amazed how easy it starts). I was told it has a hotter spark when hand cranked than when using the starter.
Also I agree with Old. IH designed it for day after day relibility not peak power.
Ryan in Northern Michigan

They call it climate change now, not globale warming.

For sure, if the battery is so bad she cant crank over, if its a 12 or heck even a 24 volt battery youre screwed. I fail how to see if you start it with a 6 or 12 volt battery the timing should be changed?? Thats primarily a function of RPM and octain rating and compression and other factors NOT at what voltage the starter motor turns. AS far as the start timing, if its too fast i.e. she fires BEFORE the piston reaches TDC that can be tough on starter drives. On smaller IHC tractors like an A or C etc 12 volt is overkill, while maybe on an M that MUST start at extreme cold temps and say the engine isnt in great shape I can see how it can be justified.

Best wishes n God Bless

John T

You can get more effiency and power out of the engine if it is timed correctly. The older timing was set so that you could hand crank or start on 6V. The 12V starting allows you to advance the timing because a little kick back does not hurt.

Thanks David, I LOVE this sparky type of chat, hope we dont bore the others::: HEY IM ENJOYING THIS FUN DISCUSSION AND NOT BEING ARGUMENTATIVE MIND YOU, we alllll have the right to our opinions, I respect yours and you mine Im sure

I DEFINITLEY AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT "You can get more effiency and power out of the engine if it is timed correctly"

Of course (as typical lol) theres MORE that must be considered, such as below, and also we have to consider BOTH the static/start timing as well as the advance run timing:


1) If it were a HAND CRANK Magneto Ignition, then its static/start/impulse timing has NOTHING to do with if the rest of the tractor is 6 or 12 volts: Their mags static/start/impulse has to be right at TDC if they are hand crankers otherwise they can kick back if too fast OUCHHHHHHHHH but harder to start if their static/start timing is too slow.

2) If its a battery powered coil and distributor ignition but still a HAND CRANK, again its static/start timing still has to be pretty well at TDC so she dont kick back AND AGAIN THATS TRUE REGARDLESS IF 6 OR 12 VOLTS

NOWWWWWWWW to your point:

"The older timing was set so that you could hand crank or start on 6V. The 12V starting allows you to advance the timing because a little kick back does not hurt"

My thoughts are:

a) If it were a Mag, theres NO difference if the rest is 6 or 12 volts (mag has nothing to do with any other electrical stuff)
b) If its a battery powered coil ignition and a hand cranker, again NO difference (see above)
c) If its a battery powered coil ignition ELECTRIC START:::: Its indeed true if the static/start timings a bit more advanced theres no crank to kick back and harm you BUT THATS STILL TRUE REGARDLESS IF 6 OR 12 VOLT AND EVEN IF AN ELEC START, TOO EARLY STARTING TIMING FIRING CAN BE TOUGH ON STARTER DRIVES

I guess what Im saying is in my humble opinion that static/start timing shouldnt NOT CHANGE REGARDLESS IF 6 OR 12 VOLT.

NOTE 1. I agree proper timing makes her run more efficient, Im NOT saying anything contrary to that

NOTE 2. I would argue static/start timing needs to be near TDC so a hand crank dont kick back and hurt you or a starter drive (on elec starters) dont risk get damaged BUT I SEE THAT THE SAME REGARDLESS OF VOLTAGE

I just fail to understand how or why you should advance the timing if you convert from 6 to 12 volts. Timing has to do with RPM,,,,,,Compression,,,,,,,,Fuel Octane and again IN MY OPINION has nothing to do with whether the starter motor or lights or coil voltage IS 6 OR 12 VOLTS and if it were a magneto ignition then it reallyyyyyyyyyy dont matter. Similar, the static/start timing cant be too much before TDC
REGARDLESS IF 6 OR 12 VOLTS AND REGARDLESS IF HAND CRANKER (hurt your arm) OR ELECTRIC START (risk damage to starter)

Thanks again, great discussion and until proven otherwise THATS MY STORY N IMA STICKIN TO IT LOL

God Bless yall

John T

There are many ways to make things work better. In light of better fuel and better oil, timing (and compression) can be raised to improve both economy and performance. The best method is to use a distributor test stand to strobe the timing to a slightly increased total advance, while maintaining TDC as a target for hand and electric starting ease. Not racing, reasoning. And yes for todays conditions, Old is a strong challenge to 1950's engineering, as are many of us. With respect, Jim

Have to agree, OLD is an experienced been there done that hands on kinda guy whom I respect. Hey Jim whats your thinkin on my post above about not seeing timing changes needed if you switch from 6 to 12 volts??

John T

yup rich, i agree with ya. giving the motor as much advance as she'll take without "pinking" (pre ignition detonation" with produce more power. also, running a higher octane fuel allows you to run more advance before detonation. the higher octane fuel doesnt in itself, produce more power, actually a lower octane fuel detonates quicker, but with the higher resistance to pre-ignition, you can run a lot higher cylinder pressures and way more advance, and really wake up a motor. course, its a fine line, and if ya cross it, you can really toast her!!

6 or 12 volts timing is timing and should not need to be changed in any way. In theory the spark should still be the same with 6 or 12 volts because you still only get so much out of a coil and that has to do with the ballast resisters etc.

John,

You are a man of few words. I did not crank the H because I did not want to lose an arm if it kicked back on me. I have gotten used to having the 12V converted units for as long as I can remember. My dad was a professional car/tractor mechanic and liked the convenience of 12V. I learned from him. The sound of a motor with the timing advanced to the optimum is joy enough for me.

Its got nothing to do with individual days or even weeks. Its all about the overall mean temperature of the globe. Non believers say the darnest things to refute scientific evidence. Everyone has their opinions but one should compare apples to apples when expressing those opinions.

(quoted from post at 18:37:10 01/07/10) Its got nothing to do with individual days or even weeks. Its all about the overall mean temperature of the globe. Non believers say the darnest things to refute scientific evidence. Everyone has their opinions but one should compare apples to apples when expressing those opinions.

Click to expand...

Yeah, sure. Okay, okay. Take it easy, pal. Put your gun away. Take three deep breaths. Now - calmly - try to tell us what this has to do with the timing on a Farmall H......
mike

I compare the the "Scientists" emails to emails. Lies, plain and simple.

Interesting how in the 1970's the "scientists" said we were headed for global cooling. Now, just 30 years later, it's global warming. Did they learn so much in that period? And their answer to the problem was the same. Limit the gas that humans exhale and plants take in. And tax rich countries and give that money to poorer ones. That will stop the "climate change".

Please.

Hey while Im more of a Deere kinda guy, a well tuned and timed (as you well point out) M sure sounds SWEETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT


Fun chattin with ya

John T

The point at which peak mean effective pressure is achieved in the cylinder depends on four (primary) factors, the speed of the engine, the octane rating of the fuel, the temperature (at the top of the compression stroke in the cylinder), and the compression pressure. These affect the flame propagation rate, and thus the point at which spark based ignition should occur.
The near zero RPM of hand cranking, and the resulting modest compression, and ambient temp. usually need a TDC setting for zero chance of kickback. This should be the setting for all ignition systems used on hand cranked engines. It does not drive the total advance, nor does it affect the advance curve.
If modern fuel is considered, and RPM is still at 1600 to 2100, total advance must still be in the mid to high 20s. This is due to the relationship between flame propagation rates and RPM. In slow turning, low compression engines, compared to the Automotive engines of today, the advance seems insufficient, but if taken higher it will detonate.
Advance should be set to produce the first hint of detonation (knock). At that setting, the Peak pressure is going to arrive near 4 to 6 degrees ATC. This is the sweet spot to gredge power out of the combustion, without driving the rings down around the skirt, or making holes in pistons. I love it!! Jim